Slitherine

AgentX wrote:But, why go for losses? Why not just get the MV on the last turn? I never play to lose on purpose; just doesn't seem right to me. Also, do you get the same Prestige bonus for a loss?

I didn't exactly recommend it. I just wanted to highlight the consequences of the campaign tree.

But to give you an answer - one answer: since you don't get much prestige from the marginal victory itself, apart from per-turn prestige and flag prestige, it stands to reason not advancing or advancing very cautiously means you can conserve your forces, which in itself is a considerable prestige saving (especially if you like to use elite replacements)

To gain maximum prestige, a MV is probably ideal. Except for a scenario like Sea Lion. Losing there (by simply turning back your forces and sitting out the scenario in France) would mean minimal risk for core unit losses. Luckily that scenario is one you need to decisively win!

The best would of course be that each scenario outcome leads to a completely different follow-up scenario, if not an outright "END". This might not be such a enormous job. It would be relatively easy to create variants of existing scenarios.

Stalingrad, for instance, could lead to a Kursk A, Kursk B or Kursk C, depending on whether you DV, MV or lose. (Which variant should contain the strongest opposition I leave up to the campaign authors...) In effect, your outcome could affect the "prestige" of the enemy too...

Kerensky wrote:You get less prestige for losing on every scenario except Norway (per turn injection > end bonus) and Stalingrad (all results reward equal here).

This is an unintended side effect of granting prestige injections mid scenario during a campaign, something you'll see much less of and not be able to abuse in the future.

Nothing wrong with a little per-turn prestige.

The bonus prestige for each level of victory should probably always be greater than the accumulated per-turn prestige for the extra turns a lesser victory allows you to continue playing, though.

In fact, it would probably work well if the game would automatically award you all remaining turns' per-turn prestige if and when you win the scenario before the last turn.

Molve wrote:In fact, it would probably work well if the game would automatically award you all remaining turns' per-turn prestige if and when you win the scenario before the last turn.

I like that idea and it would be a nice bonus. Would discourage "prestige farming" by making a victory worth the same no matter which turn it ends on.

In the editor there is a 'Score' field next to the victory conditions for campaigns. I assume this was so players would get a higher score for a DV even if they got less prestige. Is it envisaged that this will be activated and an overall score given for a campaign? This might be another way to encourage playing for the victory rather than the prestige points.

AgentX wrote:

Molve wrote:In fact, it would probably work well if the game would automatically award you all remaining turns' per-turn prestige if and when you win the scenario before the last turn.

I like that idea and it would be a nice bonus. Would discourage "prestige farming" by making a victory worth the same no matter which turn it ends on.

The other reason to continue a battle longer is the unit experience it can give taking out those last few weak enemy units.

El_Condoro wrote:In the editor there is a 'Score' field next to the victory conditions for campaigns. I assume this was so players would get a higher score for a DV even if they got less prestige. Is it envisaged that this will be activated and an overall score given for a campaign? This might be another way to encourage playing for the victory rather than the prestige points.

Entirely possible for the future.

AgentX wrote:But, why go for losses? Why not just get the MV on the last turn? I never play to lose on purpose; just doesn't seem right to me. Also, do you get the same Prestige bonus for a loss?

Many here already won the campaign and invaded America. They know they can do it.

I even started a thread about it, sometimes you want to do it as "historical" as possible and follow history and end up fighting in Italy, the Ardennes and Germany with your core army.

Therefore you just CAN'T knock England and Russia out of the war if you want to do that. A chart like this is very handy for this.

You can always play the scenarios you don't get in a campaign as stand alone games anyway, although you have to accept whatever starting forces the scenario gives you - i.e no 'Elite' Core units.

AgentX wrote:
I like that idea and it would be a nice bonus. Would discourage "prestige farming" by making a victory worth the same no matter which turn it ends on.

You can still farm experience at Victory points though. (Leave the immediate are around the VP clear, the AI will purchase some cannon fodder for your units to slaughter).

Fimconte wrote:

rezan00 wrote:I gotta ask. which path takes the longest?

To Total Victory:
Poland DV -> Norway -> Low Countries DV -> France DV -> Sea Lion 40 Lose -> Greece -> Barbarossa -> Kiev -> Moscow 41 DV -> Sea Lion 42 -> USA East -> USA Mid-West -> USA West
USA West is 13th Scenario

West Defeated, Marginal VS Soviets:
Poland DV -> Norway -> Low Countries DV -> France DV -> Sea Lion 40 DV -> -> Barbarossa -> Kiev -> Moscow 41 Marginal/Lose -> Stalingrad -> Kursk DV -> Moscow 43 Lose -> Bagration Marginal -> Lake Balaton Marginal/Lose -> Germany East
Germany East is 14th Scenario

Soviets Defeated, Marginal VS The West.
Poland DV -> Norway -> Low Countries DV -> France DV -> Sea Lion 40 Lose -> Greece -> Barbarossa -> Kiev -> Moscow 41 Marginal/Lose -> Stalingrad DV -> Kursk DV-> Moscow 43 DV -> Overlord Marginal -> Ardennes Marginal -> Germany West
Germany West is 15th Scenario
-- Alternatively You can Go: Moscow 41 Decisive -> Sea Lion 42 Lose -> Italy Lose -> Gustav Line -> Overlord Marginal -> Ardennes Marginal -> Germany West
-- Also results in Germany West 15th Scenario

Marginal VS The Allies:
Same Result as Soviets Defeated, All paths equal 15 Scenarios.

You forgot the parallel jump from Ardennes DV to Lake Balaton to Germany East. Making the longest path 16 scenarios.

bump

tpott900 wrote:bump

No need to bump. It's already on the sticky "Common Questions".

ahh.. I missed that, thanks!

This is just a slightly modified version of the previously posted scenario graph taking the longest routes to get a win in the USA and a win in Germany - including the number of units and auxiliary units started with.

To try and balance your core units following creation of new units in later missions, I would suggest that after every 4 scenarios you increment the starting unit strength and experience so that you don't have green weak units getting picked off or being next to useless.

Alternatively you could try and start off with the first 5 missions with maximum 200% prestige and experience earned so that you can build up a large number of varied core units that can be chosen between and upgraded as and when required.

I have taken most of the Germany route statistics from the scenarios so a few mistakes might have crept in.

I understand the marginal victories in the "losing" path, but just wanted to understand the marginal victories in the "winning" path. To conserve prestige/damage to your corp?

This diagram, while awesome, is a bit out of date. I finished up the yellow-side Stalingrad mission with a Moderate Victory but still ended up with Kursk as my next mission. The diagram indicates that I should have gotten Kursk only with a Decisive Victory (I should have been shunted to Italy instead).