Slitherine

I have just played TGM (Medieval Swedes) with the Papal States and I lost 7/34 to 40/37. The Papal troops are what might be called heroically naff, their mercenary English archers are even incapable of making stakes it seems. We have now swapped sides but it does seem as if the Medieval Swedes are getting themselves off the hook.

I think the Papal States are so bad no one played them, so almost everyone did not even know they existed.

Xiggy wrote:I think the Papal States are so bad no one played them, so almost everyone did not even know they existed.

I think everyone should try them at least once to see how truly dreadful they are. In the return match with TGM my Medieval Swedes beat his Papal army by 7/39 to 47/41, so without much doubt at all the Papal States are the weakest army in SOA. The Swedes and the Granadines are definitely off the hook now.

My least favourites:

Thracian - they get walked on unless you're in lots of wooded terrain

Pergamene - jack of all trades - master of none!

Nakedcelt wrote:My least favourites:

Thracian - they get walked on unless you're in lots of wooded terrain

Pergamene - jack of all trades - master of none!

tend agree about Illyria but the troops are so numerious and cheap you can afford a GC and likly get those woods.

Try pergie w the galatian ally (tons o' superior impact troops) and the list is a differnt beast altogther.

The Papal list is only one step behind the rest of the Italians in SOA- all those dodgy average Condottiere who cost a fortune and don't even look good, with a few miserable crossbows & spears...
However, no one has yet nominated the Picts- a mass of unprotected medium spears, a combination not seen since the Early Sumerians 3000BC in The TT Swifter Than Eagles. Even the pathetic shooting of Late Roman mixed legionaries/archers can make a dent in that lot. Even the Papal States can put a dent...
In fact, I'm now inspired to put up a challenge with a Papal army, any period opponent, against (hopefully) another rubbish army- may the least incompetent win!

bwmmc1 wrote:The Papal list is only one step behind the rest of the Italians in SOA- all those dodgy average Condottiere who cost a fortune and don't even look good, with a few miserable crossbows & spears...
However, no one has yet nominated the Picts- a mass of unprotected medium spears, a combination not seen since the Early Sumerians 3000BC in The TT Swifter Than Eagles. Even the pathetic shooting of Late Roman mixed legionaries/archers can make a dent in that lot. Even the Papal States can put a dent...
In fact, I'm now inspired to put up a challenge with a Papal army, any period opponent, against (hopefully) another rubbish army- may the least incompetent win!

I think the picts ae pretty darn powerful, besides the masses of unprotected OFFENSIVE spear (big differnce between that and light spear), they get plenty of impact foot (including superiors)etc... With the Saxon ally you can get your standard barbarian heavy foot to boot. With an army that large with strike and defensive capability, you dont need cavalry....

Re papal. It is a shame that the average drilled papal knights cost only 1 point less than superior undrilled ones, for a one point differnce you have a unit that is literally 40% more powerfull... When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw? It is odd how that list is basically 14 century wheras all the other condatta lists are mid 15th century....

TheGrayMouser wrote: When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw?

TGM, though being italian, i couldn't locate those "Romaganl"
probably a typo, but who do you really mean?

omarquatar wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote: When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw?

TGM, though being italian, i couldn't locate those "Romaganl"
probably a typo, but who do you really mean?

Wasnt the "Romagnol" area part of the Papal states territories, I believe on the Adriatic side ?

TheGrayMouser wrote:

omarquatar wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote: When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw?

TGM, though being italian, i couldn't locate those "Romaganl"
probably a typo, but who do you really mean?

Wasnt the "Romagnol" area part of the Papal states territories, I believe on the Adriatic side ?

ah, you was meaning the "Romagna" region, from latin "Romania"; it's clear now

TheGrayMouser wrote: Re papal. It is a shame that the average drilled papal knights cost only 1 point less than superior undrilled ones, for a one point differnce you have a unit that is literally 40% more powerfull... When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw? It is odd how that list is basically 14 century wheras all the other condatta lists are mid 15th century....

I have done a bit of scouting about on Wikipedia and it says the Papal Swiss Guard were formed 1n 1506, but were only 150 men strong to begin with - eventually their number grew to 600. In 1567, a Swiss Guards regiment was formed.

It also seems that Cesare Borgia was quite a successful commander for the Papal army in his Italian campaigns but I have no details of the troop compositions of his armies. Do the FOG Renaissance books give any more info? Anyone?

In my paired game with Frank, the Papal States army lost both their games to Naples.

stockwellpete wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote: Re papal. It is a shame that the average drilled papal knights cost only 1 point less than superior undrilled ones, for a one point differnce you have a unit that is literally 40% more powerfull... When did the Papacy start using Swiss mercs or even local Romaganl pikeman btw? It is odd how that list is basically 14 century wheras all the other condatta lists are mid 15th century....

I have done a bit of scouting about on Wikipedia and it says the Papal Swiss Guard were formed 1n 1506, but were only 150 men strong to begin with - eventually their number grew to 600. In 1567, a Swiss Guards regiment was formed.

It also seems that Cesare Borgia was quite a successful commander for the Papal army in his Italian campaigns but I have no details of the troop compositions of his armies. Do the FOG Renaissance books give any more info? Anyone?

Not sure how the Papacy is represented in FOG TT Ancient /medieval, but the list for the Ren. Italian lists cover them , early 1500's
Basically piles of average knights but they can take landschnect mercs (pikes halberds) as well as "Romagnol" pikes (thats how its spelt in the rulsbook Frank)

There is a definite reason why the Papal list looks so bad. I just posted a note in the support forum with a number of errors in the Condotta Papal list compared the with TT original. Basically they should get pikes and billmen and more foot in general similar to what the Condotta Naples list has and which will make them a much less pitiful list.

Chris

batesmotel wrote:There is a definite reason why the Papal list looks so bad. I just posted a note in the support forum with a number of errors in the Condotta Papal list compared the with TT original. Basically they should get pikes and billmen and more foot in general similar to what the Condotta Naples list has and which will make them a much less pitiful list.

Chris

Dont forget the armoured Pope Mobile

TheGrayMouser wrote: as well as "Romagnol" pikes (thats how its spelt in the rulsbook Frank)

yes, i would have understood "Romagnol", but you wrote an unknown word like Romaganl or something similar, so i asked

TheGrayMouser wrote:

batesmotel wrote:There is a definite reason why the Papal list looks so bad. I just posted a note in the support forum with a number of errors in the Condotta Papal list compared the with TT original. Basically they should get pikes and billmen and more foot in general similar to what the Condotta Naples list has and which will make them a much less pitiful list.

Chris

Dont forget the armoured Pope Mobile

Right, like the war wagon. And any army fighting against it automatically gets a free IC named John Wayne! Actually, I think the pope mobile is post 1500 since it was invented by Leonardo so should be in the FoG-R list but not the SOA one .

Chris

omarquatar wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote: as well as "Romagnol" pikes (thats how its spelt in the rulsbook Frank)

yes, i would have understood "Romagnol", but you wrote an unknown word like Romaganl or something similar, so i asked

Yes I do type quite poorly

batesmotel wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote:

batesmotel wrote:There is a definite reason why the Papal list looks so bad. I just posted a note in the support forum with a number of errors in the Condotta Papal list compared the with TT original. Basically they should get pikes and billmen and more foot in general similar to what the Condotta Naples list has and which will make them a much less pitiful list.

Chris

Dont forget the armoured Pope Mobile

Right, like the war wagon. And any army fighting against it automatically gets a free IC named John Wayne! Actually, I think the pope mobile is post 1500 since it was invented by Leonardo so should be in the FoG-R list but not the SOA one .

Chris

Actually i was jokingly refering to the modern day bullet proofed golf cart he drives around in during public appearances

Although... I know some Italian city states used war carts of some sorts (more as a central focal point for standards , commnders rather than actual war engines) , but I think that wouldnt be covered in the SoA lists but several centuries earlier, Fred Barbarossa's time, 12 th century??

TheGrayMouser wrote: Although... I know some Italian city states used war carts of some sorts (more as a central focal point for standards , commnders rather than actual war engines) , but I think that wouldnt be covered in the SoA lists but several centuries earlier, Fred Barbarossa's time, 12 th century??

Caroccio, caroccio . . . wherefore art thou, caroccio?

Actually the English had a caroccio-type contraption at the Battle of the Standard 1138 (one of my scenarios) - the bones of St Cuthbert were contained within it and the Scots consequently had no chance!