Slitherine

petedalby wrote:

Yes, I suppose it does in the example you've given, but it seems a little silly to have troops (any troops) that have established a defensive posture to leave that posture behind and charge headlong...

Maybe - but them's the rules.

In a similar way - shock troops on a hill can be tempted to charge down off of it. You as the supreme commander may not want them too - and they are far better off with that POA - but history is full of examples where troops, even well trained ones, don't always follow their orders to theirs and others detriment.

And wargaming history is full of examples of wargamers just liking to complain, no? "Them's the rules" hasn't been an obstacle - portable or otherwise - to that before.

petedalby wrote:

Yes, I suppose it does in the example you've given, but it seems a little silly to have troops (any troops) that have established a defensive posture to leave that posture behind and charge headlong...

Maybe - but them's the rules.

In a similar way - shock troops on a hill can be tempted to charge down off of it. You as the supreme commander may not want them too - and they are far better off with that POA - but history is full of examples where troops, even well trained ones, don't always follow their orders to theirs and others detriment.

It is a bit daft but that's partly because it's a confused troop type - shock troops with defensive obstacles.

Are the Qin the guys that can be IF or HW? It might but that the list writer spotted the possible daftness and gave HW as an option to sort it out.

They are the Warring States guys from the BIG tomb. Apparently Son of God the King of Heaven offered them bonuses for enemy heads, so they went a bit mad. They are normally HW.

Hmmm...and there was me thinking that MF only got to avoid the possibility of impetuous charge out of terrain if it was a mounted target. But now I tstop to think about it, possibility of contacting mounted cancels the need to test regardless of terrain. So accept a definite "duh!" moment on my behalf.

Can I go back and edit my post with the hilltop example, which I also considered using in the first place

FWIW, I'm not sold on the FoG idea of legionaries being quite so impetuous either. But the rules do still make undrilled are a bit more likely to go haring than drilled, so it's not a total disaster.

ShrubMiK wrote:FWIW, I'm not sold on the FoG idea of legionaries being quite so impetuous either. But the rules do still make undrilled are a bit more likely to go haring than drilled, so it's not a total disaster.

I don't think it's that the legionaries are impetuous. It's that the junior officers know the drill manual. That tells us at what distance to start the advance, discharge the pila, draw the gladius, etc.

So if you put Roman legions within a certain distance of the enemy, their drill will make them engage. If you don't want that to happen, legate, you'll need to gallop over and mke it clear to the centurions, etc. If you hurry, you might be in time.

Then I say it's a very good thing that when my legions re-equipped with longer range throwing weapons the junior officers misplaced their drill manuals

grahambriggs wrote:

ShrubMiK wrote:FWIW, I'm not sold on the FoG idea of legionaries being quite so impetuous either. But the rules do still make undrilled are a bit more likely to go haring than drilled, so it's not a total disaster.

I don't think it's that the legionaries are impetuous. It's that the junior officers know the drill manual. That tells us at what distance to start the advance, discharge the pila, draw the gladius, etc.

Would that be the same drill manual that states "after setting up a defensive formation of caltrops, stay behind them and don't go charging the unit of poor quality light infantry"

philqw78 wrote: Though I don't think Romans get PO anyway. I believe the only shock that do get PO are the Q'in regraded MF.

Which is a meaningless comment.

It is a historical fact that Legionaries did, from time to time, deploy what would be called in game terms "portable obstacles". That the list writers chose not to include them in their list doesn't change this.

There is no difference between one kind of Shock Foot and the next (in the open). All the rules apply.

Thus, we can use what we know of the Romans to see if the rule is sensible or not.

Given that the Qin may be the only shock troops in the game capable of PO's, it is likely that the idea of them charging impetuously out from behind them didn't even cross the list and/or rule writers minds.

grahambriggs wrote: It is a bit daft but that's partly because it's a confused troop type - shock troops with defensive obstacles.

Are the Qin the guys that can be IF or HW? It might but that the list writer spotted the possible daftness and gave HW as an option to sort it out.

I don't agree. The 'shock/not shock' is a game mechanism. The same 'shock legionaries' would be the one's building the fortified camp after all.

Personally, I don't really like the 'charging without orders' side to the game. I accept it, but I think the rule causes more problems, especially with undrilled and VMD's.

The thought that a unit of poor javelinmen can pull a battle line out of formation simply doesn't make sense to me... Especially seeing it is very difficult to put that formation back into play.

Anyway, back to your comment Graham, I think that Shock troops can very quickly become non shock troops, and this is one of the times I believe that they would become non-Shock.

ravenflight wrote:

philqw78 wrote: Though I don't think Romans get PO anyway. I believe the only shock that do get PO are the Q'in regraded MF.

Which is a meaningless comment.

It is a historical fact that Legionaries did, from time to time, deploy what would be called in game terms "portable obstacles". That the list writers chose not to include them in their list doesn't change this.

There is no difference between one kind of Shock Foot and the next (in the open). All the rules apply.

Thus, we can use what we know of the Romans to see if the rule is sensible or not.

Given that the Qin may be the only shock troops in the game capable of PO's, it is likely that the idea of them charging impetuously out from behind them didn't even cross the list and/or rule writers minds.

Bollocks (apart from the last bit about the LIST writers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEx_ByPS ... re=related

If the list writer had thought about it they would have been precluded from PO.

ravenflight wrote:Would that be the same drill manual that states "after setting up a defensive formation of caltrops, stay behind them and don't go charging the unit of poor quality light infantry"

The same one that states "stand their and get shot at by crap because you are the hardest troops in the known world"

ravenflight wrote:I think that Shock troops can very quickly become non shock troops, and this is one of the times I believe that they would become non-Shock.

And this belief comes from?

ravenflight wrote:

grahambriggs wrote: It is a bit daft but that's partly because it's a confused troop type - shock troops with defensive obstacles.

Are the Qin the guys that can be IF or HW? It might but that the list writer spotted the possible daftness and gave HW as an option to sort it out.

I don't agree. The 'shock/not shock' is a game mechanism. The same 'shock legionaries' would be the one's building the fortified camp after all.

Personally, I don't really like the 'charging without orders' side to the game. I accept it, but I think the rule causes more problems, especially with undrilled and VMD's.

The thought that a unit of poor javelinmen can pull a battle line out of formation simply doesn't make sense to me... Especially seeing it is very difficult to put that formation back into play.

Anyway, back to your comment Graham, I think that Shock troops can very quickly become non shock troops, and this is one of the times I believe that they would become non-Shock.

I would agree that legions would not automatically charge skirmishers - though they would I think wade in against formed troops. Earlier legions, after all would have velites in front so would not need to test.

I also agree that troops with deployed portable obstacles would not be inclined to charge out of them. So two instances where the rules don't align with history. But that is what the rules currently say.

I should think in non-tournamentgames it should be easy enough to agree such minor changes.

i think the Impact Foot would charge. the rules state that the POs "count as Field Fortifications when their defenders are in close combat against mounted opponents..." so if the opponent the impact foot is facing is not mounted then the POs do not count for anything and there is no reason for the impact foot not to charge or test not to charge.

Would you have to charge if you included one base of crossbowmen in the front rank?

Would you have to charge if you included one base of crossbowmen in the front rank?

Shock troops are mentioned on P18 and in the Glossary on P136. Mixed BGs of shock and non-shock foot are not mentioned specifically.

FWIW my view would be that if there are any 'foot with impact capability' or any of the categories mentioned, then the requirements for a potential charge without orders are met. Nowhere does it say that the entire BG must be shock troops - or even that the front rank must be shock troops. It just states that shock troops are eager to get stuck in.

So on that basis - yes, charge or test not to.

And if they are uphill behind POs with a xbowman in the front rank, my view would still be yes.

No worries pete, just wondering. The reason i ask is that a bg with bow or x-bow has to test to charge non-skirmishers

No worries pete, just wondering. The reason i ask is that a bg with bow or x-bow has to test to charge non-skirmishers

Cheers Dave - I think I your example isn't covered explicity by the rules - I was just giving my view - others are entitled to disagree.

Right, so what we are saying is that if i want to charge i am shock troops and if i dont i have missile troops in the front rank.

Is there a precedent with the blood and gold lads who are impact foot and javelins? I am fairly sure they have to charge.

dave_r wrote:Right, so what we are saying is that if i want to charge i am shock troops and if i dont i have missile troops in the front rank.

Is there a precedent with the blood and gold lads who are impact foot and javelins? I am fairly sure they have to charge.

That's how Bob and I played it with our shooty-shock Aztecs at Burton. There were only a couple of occasions where we felt the ~need~ to test and hold back the charge mind you.