Slitherine

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2011 3:07 pm**

Petefloro wrote:
I remain not entirely convinced
.

Same with me.

In the middle of the right hand column p.58:

" Otherwise if shock troops would normally be required to test to prevent them from charging with out orders,the following rules apply if they could not contact the enemy with out passing through friends,
even by wheeling and/or dropping bases back".

for me that implies that they do drop bases back to make contact in the charge, but if they can't get in by contracting a base width they burst through the friendly BG.

That is telling you when the following bullet points apply, and not what happens in the charge.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 10:49 am**

That is telling you when the following bullet points apply, and not what happens in the charge.

Yes, I agree with you.

But I interpret the line "even by wheeling and/or dropping bases back" in the preceding paragraph, along with the third bullet point, to mean if the BG charging without orders can't wheel or drop back a base width to avoid friends,it must burst through them.

I'm not being pedantic or argumentative but that's the way I've played it for the past couple of years or so

Is that wrong then?

A line something like:

" BGs charging without orders and fail the CMT not to charge can not wheel or drop back bases to avoid bursting through friendly BGs" would be much more clear.

But there isn't one like that in the rules as far as I know.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 12:49 pm**

nikgaukroger wrote:
Petefloro wrote:
I remain not entirely convinced
.

Same with me.

In the middle of the right hand column p.58:

" Otherwise if shock troops would normally be required to test to prevent them from charging with out orders,the following rules apply if they could not contact the enemy with out passing through friends,
even by wheeling and/or dropping bases back".

for me that implies that they do drop bases back to make contact in the charge, but if they can't get in by contracting a base width they burst through the friendly BG.

That is telling you when the following bullet points apply, and not what happens in the charge.

As far as I can discern, the only circumstances in which troops charging without orders will burst through friends is when the last bullet on page 58 applies, e.g. when they cannot make contact by dropping back bases or wheeling. In all other circumstances troops charging without orders will not burst through friends. Do you see any indication of any other circumstances where they will burst through friends indicated in the rules for charging without orders?

Chris

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 2:03 pm**

Do you see any indication of any other circumstances where they will burst through friends indicated in the rules for charging without orders?

I can't see any.Unless I've missed something.

As far as I can discern, the only circumstances in which troops charging without orders will burst through friends is when the last bullet on page 58 applies, e.g. when they cannot make contact by dropping back bases or wheeling.

And IMHO, you're right

Thanks the replies. Sorry for slow responses - keep losing my connection intermittently for some reason

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 2:24 pm**

Surely they wouldn't burst through the friendly unit anyway because the friends are already in melee. So if they were completely behind the skirmishers they would not have to test. But as they can charge by dropping a base, if they fail their test they must drop a base and charge.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 2:37 pm**

petedalby wrote:
voluntary charge must drop back.
FWIW I agree.

I must disagree with Ethan's post though - sorry Ethan. If the pike didn't choose to charge - and then failed it's CMT to initiate a charge without orders - it cannot choose to drop back. See Page 58 - If it fails, it must burst through the friends.

On the contrary, as they can avoid bursting through the friends by dropping back a file, they do so.

Otherwise, if shock troops would normally be required to test to prevent them from charging without orders, the following rules apply if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends, even by wheeling and/or dropping back bases:
 They do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee.
 They do not test (and will not charge) if all the enemy in reach are skirmishers.
 Otherwise the battle group must take a CMT as normal. If it fails, it must burst through the friends. (Note that a player cannot choose to allow his shock troops to burst through in this way, they can only do so if they fail their CMT and charge without orders).

The bullets (including the burst through bullet) are only triggered at all if they cannot contact the enemy without passing through friends, even by wheeling and/or dropping back bases.

In this case they can contact the enemy without passing through friends by wheeling and dropping back bases, so none of the bullets apply. Hence they don't burst through.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 8:59 pm**

rbodleyscott wrote:The bullets (including the burst through bullet) are only triggered at all if they cannot contact the enemy without passing through friends, even by wheeling and/or dropping back bases.

In this case they can contact the enemy without passing through friends by wheeling and dropping back bases, so none of the bullets apply. Hence they don't burst through.

Well, a number of us seem to have read the rulebook rather sloppily!

Looks like Leslie and Ethan are right - the definitive view in the example given is that in both cases whether a declared charge, or due to a failed CMT, the pike MUST drop back to avoid interpenetrating the friendly LF.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2011 9:50 pm**

Looks like Leslie and Ethan are right

erm, and myself as well

or did I just imagine I posted on here

Posted: **Tue May 24, 2011 8:44 am**

Petefloro wrote:
Looks like Leslie and Ethan are right
erm, and myself as well

or did I just imagine I posted on here

You are a sensitive fellow!

Posted: **Tue May 24, 2011 9:34 am**

Thanks for clearing that up Richard - and my apologies to Ethan for doubting you!

Posted: **Thu May 26, 2011 8:00 am**

Thanks for the answers make my choices clearer

Leslie

Posted: **Thu May 26, 2011 1:55 pm**

petedalby wrote:Thanks for clearing that up Richard - and my apologies to Ethan for doubting you!

Just shows you can be right once in a while guessing what the rules say without a rules book at hand...

Posted: **Thu May 26, 2011 2:09 pm**

ethan wrote:Just shows you can be right once in a while guessing what the rules say without a rules book at hand...

An infinite number of Ethans with an infinite number of guesses.