Slitherine

Slitherine has NOT dragged their feet because they only got the final files from us May 7th. That's only a few weeks ago. GS v2.0 is not a game Slitherine is selling. It's an expansion that's made by game fans and supported by Slitherine (they're hosting the expansion).

The main reason for the game delay has been game balance issues. The latest ones were the British garrison blob in France and German armor blob in Russia, both created by Morris. We simply had to deal with those issues or people using these strategies would win outright.

That is the nature of game creation. E. g. fine games like World In Flames have had lots of revisions, errata etc. because balance issues etc. are discovered. E. g. in some versions it was normal for the Germans to capture Paris in Sep/Oct 1939 and most Germans invaded Spain and took Gibraltar. I haven't played WIFFE for a long time and don't know if it's an issue anymore, but it proves to you can never guard against creative players.

We want GS v2.0 to be more balanced than GS v1.07 so we've held the release until we felt we had achieved that goal. Still, were not 100% sure we have managed that, but we hope so. Therefore we made a go-ahead for release.

Slitherine is responsible for the GS v2.0 release and it's only natural we have to follow their QA procedures before a release is actually made. Had we released it ourselves we could have done so May 7th. Less than 3 weeks QA with Slitherine is definitely not a long time regarding game creation.

If you really want an example of a game hearing about release soon for years then you can look at MWIF. It was started more than 10 years ago (CWIF) and still it's in development. Such games are so complex you just need the time it takes to get ready.

kvadra wrote:I wasn't talking about only this thread, but I won't argue with you on that.
The point is, we're wainting eagerly for this awesome patch, but Slitherine seems to be dragging out the time unnecessarily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find that certainly less-than-optimal. It makes me not wanting to buy games from them in the future.
It would be very nice if we could just get an archive of the whole thing and get started already.

Here's what's been going on behind the scenes.
1. As Borger stated files prepped and ready for Slitherine to build the GS installer on May 7.
2. Beta of installer ready for download and testing by the beta team on May 11.
3. Installer downloaded and a clean GS install made. Every file in the GS install (data, class & graphic) is differenced with the tester beta version. The files match as expected so, so far things looks good. However; GS doesn't startup due to a launcher incompatibility between the GS install, which was based on the MH version of CEaW, and the GS beta, which was based on CEaW 1.00 upgraded to 1.12 gold. All this took place over the weekend May 13-15.
4. The compatibility issue identified to Slitherine on May 16. New installer built by them and ready for download and testing on May 16. New installer downloaded, files differenced with the testers beta version, GS starts up and two or three turns from games started with the beta testers’ version played. All looks good and this is relayed to Slitherine on May 17.
5. Next, Slitherine re-mastered the GS installer in its released formed, coordinated with their marketing department and prepared press releases for it. Now, while we testers do this for free (i.e., we’re amateurs), Slitherine is a business and has certain standards to uphold for all products released under their banner. Why do we care? Well the reason I care is that, for me, a healthy Slitherine means a place where games like Grand Strategy and Battlefield Academy can thrive, player communities can come together and I have a place to enjoy my hobby.
6. Back to getting GS out to the community. After they remasted it and their their CM (configuration management) folks check it out and gave their ok, Iain asked us to also check out the remasted installer just to be sure. This was Friday May 20. So over the weekend (May 20 – 22), the remastered installer was downloaded, installed and GS started. I then tried to load a turn from an existing game started with the tester’s beta version and got the error that the game was saved with a previous version. I then tried turns from my 4 other games and got the same error. It turns out that this remastered version used some class files from the latest MH CEaW version (i.e., 1.12.1), which is incompatible with 1.12 gold, which includes older version of CEaW upgraded to 1.12 gold.
7. This is certainly not what we want! The set of incompatible class files were identified (~20 to 25 in all) and the remastered GS installer redone again by Slitherine with these incompatibilities addressed. The new remastered GS installer is ready for download and checkout by the testers. It’s now Monday, May 23.
8. This remastered GS installer is downloaded, installed and started up. Now, do my existing game turns load? They do! I play three turns with this version. How do the GS files from this install compare with the same files in my beta tester version? And if I remember correctly we’re talking about more than 25,000 files spread over several folders. They match as expected! We give the go to Slitherine on Tuesday, May 24th (that’s yesterday!).
9. And by the way, I’ve only addressed the PC version of the game. All that I described has also been going on with the MAC version of the game. I’m sure Paul can tell you about that. Oh, and let’s don’t forget Alec who’s did the manuals and is doing a series of brochures (or pamphlets) in the vein of Avalon Hill’s, “The General”. Now what does all this buy you? For FREE, you get a professional product that ensures compatibility (i.e., people can play PBEM games against each other) with GS installed over the following CEaW versions:
a. Slitherine or Matrix PC CEaW v1.00 (or later) upgraded to 1.12 gold.
b. Slitherine or Matrix PC CEaW MH 1.12 (both old and new purchases).
c. Freeverse or Matrix MAC CEaW 1.06 (both old and new purchases).
10. Also, you have a thriving players community and a forum for finding opponents, getting questions answered about the game, getting patches as necessary for bug fixes and reading/posting AAR’s. Did I tell you that we, the testers, did and are doing all this for free?

We're all looking forward to the new version, and would like it to be released ASAP. However, as rkr1958 points out, all of this additional work has been done for free. So to complain that it's "taking too long" is unreasonable. If you're getting something for free -- even if it takes awhile -- then you can't really complain.

Also, it's much better to be thorough and release a product that's as bug free as possible, rather than rush and release something that only partially works.

Even if this takes another month to be released, all of the work that has gone into it is much appreciated.

rkr1958 and Stauffenberg: There's no reason to be upset. I wasn't criticizing you. The reason I expressed my concerns was because it seemed to me that Slitherine was dragging out the time unnecessarily. Now I know they doesn't.
I appreciate the work you've done, I really do. But there is absolutely no reason to be so harsh.
Now, let's end this discussion before it gets completely out of hand.

I have been following the discussions on the development of GS 2.0 with rapt interest and appreciate all the time and work that has gone into this project. My main concern throughout is that everyone remember that this is a GAME and while reflecting as much reality as possible is good the most important thing is that there is a reasonable chance for either side to win.

Followed very closely by having a game that's actually playable without quitting your job so you have the time needed to remember exactly how that Panzer Korps from 1939 is affected by maintenance issues on the third descending roller supporting the left hand track!

For that reason I applaud the GS team for taking the time to work out game balance issues and having the courage to say no to changes that complicate without enhancing the play of a strategic level game.

Congratulations and Kudos - can't wait but will wait for the GAME GS 2.0!

Hi May 31st, 2011


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2822412

pk867

Thanks! That's very kind of you.

I am waiting anxiously and impatiently!

In 2.0 Grand Strategy - AI whether it is a good opponent?

From what I have read the AI was not a focus of the effort to create 2.0. Therefore it is adequate to play against to learn the basics of the game. Timing, tactics, how the new rules and enhancements work within the context of the game. But it will not give you a feel for playing against a live opponent. It will never be as brilliant, devious and just plain dumb like a live opponent can prove to be. Being a MAC guy I have not had the opportunity to play the previous versions of GS and so will use the AI to figure out how out of date my thinking and strategies are and how to deal with all the new stuff. Probable 2 games from start to finish from each side and then a few scenarios for differing situations and then on to live competition. I will plan, and I hate it, to get beaten the first few times I attempt human opponents. But that's where the fun is and why I am as excited as I am about this upgrade - the size of the pool of opponents seems to have expanded greatly and should provide lots of opportunity to experience the "thrill of victory and the agony of defeat"!

Come on May 31st! What's taking you so long to arrive?!

CEAW-GS v2.00 won't reveal its full potential when played against the AI. The AI is always dumb and predictable. One of the key attractions of PBEM play is not knowing ahead of time what strategy or combination of strategies your opponent will try.

But the AI is important, as not everyone has the ability to play against a human opponent.

Isn't an e-mail account all that one needs to get started? Just wondering.

Not all of us have the knowhow. I tried it like 2 years ago and it didn't go well to say the least. Still,the possibility of Ultimate Victory and improvements make the game tolerable and even enjoyable.

And the day arrives, eager anticipation but so far, nothing.

Is this a short delay or is the 31st to come and go with no upgrade. I do hope the former.

There's still about 40% of the day to go. It's 14:04 GMT at the moment and after all work doesn't end until 17:00 GMT. I'm hugely excited. I've waited a long time and it seems the wait will be worth it.

Everything is fine so release should happen when Slitherine opens the site. Maybe they're running by the hours in USA and that means it's only morning there. So give it some time.

It is here

http://www.slitherine.com/ceaw_gs2

37 mins left. Ooh yeah.