Slitherine

bbotus wrote:Nik and Pete, thanks for the page 133 reference. I thought I had seen that before but I could not find it again.

To be honest its not the first place you'd look - really should have had a glossary definition I guess, but hindsight is a wonderful thing

petedalby wrote:

So, a unit of 8 pike in 2x4 block with only the front 2 bases in open terrain and the back ranks in difficult terrain would still be entitled to the + for 3 ranks of steady pike but would not get the + for the 4th rank and would be severly disordered for movement and all tests. Does that sound right?

Partly. It is quite an unusual scenario that you describe - but here's my take on it.

All of the fighting bases are in the open - so the BG gets 4 dice.

The front rank bases are not severely disordered, the 3rd rank is - but there are still 3 ranks - so the POA for 3 rank pikes applies.

It is the front base that needs to be in the open to get the 4th rank + - so it still gets this.

And yes, the BG is considered to be Severely Disordered for CTs & CMTs and slowed for movement.

Others inevitably may disagree.

Sounds good to me - although I haven't bothered actually checking the rules

petedalby wrote:

Or the IWF could fly us out 1st Class to do the umpiring

I'd do it for economy!

You're cheap

bbotus wrote:So, a unit of 8 pike in 2x4 block with only the front 2 bases in open terrain and the back ranks in difficult terrain would still be entitled to the + for 3 ranks of steady pike

but there are only 2 ranks of steady pike, the front 2. So no. But lances would not count in impact nor swords in melee against them as the front 2 (could even be 1) are steady.

but would not get the + for the 4th rank and would be severly disordered for movement and all tests. Does that sound right?

Does the BG need to be steady for the fourth rank plus?

but there are only 2 ranks of steady pike, the front 2. So no. But lances would not count in impact nor swords in melee against them as the front 2 (could even be 1) are steady.

That's not what it says on Page 96. It just requires 3 ranks of pikemen - not 3 ranks of steady pikemen.

Does the BG need to be steady for the fourth rank plus?

I don't believe so - no.

You're cheap

And cheerful!

petedalby wrote:That's not what it says on Page 96. It just requires 3 ranks of pikemen - not 3 ranks of steady pikemen.

But it still would not get a plus for 3 ranks of steady pikemen which is what the OP said and what I argued against.

Not having the rules here I can only go on what is stated in the OP.

petedalby wrote:

It is the front base that needs to be in the open to get the 4th rank + - so it still gets this.

Thanks for the comments and Nik agreed. Anyone know where in Alaska I can get a lesson in reading the Queen's English ?

philqw78 wrote:

petedalby wrote:That's not what it says on Page 96. It just requires 3 ranks of pikemen - not 3 ranks of steady pikemen.

But it still would not get a plus for 3 ranks of steady pikemen which is what the OP said and what I argued against.
Not having the rules here I can only go on what is stated in the OP.

But now I am at home what it does say is P97:

Pikemen (at least three ranks) - + - Unless fragmented or severely disordered.

And the original poster put the 3rd and 4th ranks in difficult. So no plus

Also

Extra for 4th rank of pikemen in open terrain - + - unless fragmented

Rule italics. So no plus for fourth rank either.

Impact on P96 is worded slighly differently. 4th rank does not count only for fragmented. The wording for three ranks is slightly different as well. It gives charging fragmented spear and pike a plus, but not if they are taking it. The reasons when charging:

unless severely disordered or less than 2 ranks of spearmen or 3 ranks of pikemen

So it seems in impact they would get the plus as it does not say at least three ranks not severely disordered like the melee. So in impact, when charging, for the OP they would get ++, + if fragmented, in melee they would get no POA's.

Ha!

Hi Phil - now you have access to the rules please read P94 - first bullet - right hand side.

Then read P135 - last bullet - left hand side.

In both cases, the front rank base is not severely disordered - so I believe both POAs apply.

I do agree that it is open to interpretation - and if we ever engineer such a bizzarre scenario I hope Nik is the umpire.

Cheers

Now read the second bullet Pete.

Close combat POA's that require a minimum number of ranks only apply if all those ranks have the required capability.

Which they do not as they, 3rd and 4th, are severely disordered.

And P135 says do not count if the base claiming, 4th and third of three,

even partly enters uneven, rough or difficult terrain

philqw78 wrote:Now read the second bullet Pete.

Close combat POA's that require a minimum number of ranks only apply if all those ranks have the required capability.

Which they do not as they, 3rd and 4th, are severely disordered.

Disorder does not affect whether a base has a capability or not - for example a base with pikemen capability has it regardless of its state. Page 16 describes capabilities.

philqw78 wrote:And P135 says do not count if the base claiming, 4th and third of three,

even partly enters uneven, rough or difficult terrain

I believe the point is that the base claiming the PoA is the front base in combat, not the 4th base, etc. so in the example the base claiming it is not in the terrain.

so 4th rank of Pikemen not in open terrain give the POA for "Extra for 4th rank of Pikemen in open terrain". I find that odd.

philqw78 wrote:so 4th rank of Pikemen not in open terrain give the POA for "Extra for 4th rank of Pikemen in open terrain". I find that odd.

Actually that makes me note that it is quite possible to read that it is different for Impact and Melee due to the way it is written in the tables. Phil has quoted the Melee phase table in the bit above.

As I explained in my poost at 1700 GMT they are both very different. And oddly charging fragemented pike will get + for 3 ranks but not another for fourth since being fragmented is different to being severely disordered.

nikgaukroger wrote:

philqw78 wrote:so 4th rank of Pikemen not in open terrain give the POA for "Extra for 4th rank of Pikemen in open terrain". I find that odd.

Actually that makes me note that it is quite possible to read that it is different for Impact and Melee due to the way it is written in the tables. Phil has quoted the Melee phase table in the bit above.

I would, however, note that I would rule it the way Pete outlined if called upon ...

So in melee the 4th rank does not need to be in open terrain?