Slitherine

grahambriggs wrote:I'm similarly without rules but I think I remeber it being in the 'special rules' section that tells you how scythed chariots work

Nope. I'm working at home - the same as Phil is working at the office, presumably - and I do have the rules in front of me.

Special section for scythed chariots:

1) Are shock troops
2) Get 3 dice per front rank base
3) Can't be part of a battle line
4) Can only make moves as permitted in the charges and advances section
5) Cause a -1 on CT to enemy who lose a close combat against them
6) "Are removed from the table at the start of the joint action phase if they remain in front edge contact with any unbroken enemy they fought this turn"
7) Do not count towards BG count and never count as attrition points lost.

I think the confusion is mixing point 7 with point 6. I haven't paid a lot of attention to them - as even with owning a huge Achaemenid army, I have no scythed chariots - 'cause I just don't like the b****rs. I figure if I want scythed chariots I'll use my Babylonian ones as "erstaz scythed chariots".

philqw78 wrote:No they hit them as they had passed the test already.

If they were charging skirmishers and didn't test, or could not as no needing to test for target was in range, they cannot then test if one comes into range after evades and VMD's either. So a bystander was heard to say.

Right. Having passed already the CMT the LH can then charge any unbroken enemy that comes within range after evades and routs. However, it they had charged the chariots in the flank and, therefore, did not have to make a CMT they would then stop their charge 1 MU from the cataphracts?

shadowdragon wrote:Right. Having passed already the CMT the LH can then charge any unbroken enemy that comes within range after evades and routs. However, it they had charged the chariots in the flank and, therefore, did not have to make a CMT they would then stop their charge 1 MU from the cataphracts?

Having passed the CMT the LH do not get the option to stop short. So if they pass to charge some fragged troops, who break at declaration, uncovering a BG of Knights that they reach the LH are in deep do do. If they do not pass a test they may not contact battle troops frontally.

The special section on scythed chariots on page 120 contains the list of special rules posted previously.
None of these say you do not test for a unit of scythed chariots breaking. Only that it does not count for attrition points.

On page 106 'Outcome moves in the JAP' it states

"Scythed chariots that remain in front edge contact with unbroken enemy they fought this turn are removed from the table at the start of the joint action phase. This does not cause any cohesion test."

I cannot find a blanket statement that scythed chariots breaking does not cause a cohesion test.

I think the original poster was correct when they tested for the break.

Paul Longmore

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n wrote:The special section on scythed chariots on page 120 contains the list of special rules posted previously.
None of these say you do not test for a unit of scythed chariots breaking. Only that it does not count for attrition points.

On page 106 'Outcome moves in the JAP' it states

"Scythed chariots that remain in front edge contact with unbroken enemy they fought this turn are removed from the table at the start of the joint action phase. This does not cause any cohesion test."

I cannot find a blanket statement that scythed chariots breaking does not cause a cohesion test.

I think the original poster was correct when they tested for the break.

Paul Longmore

Yes I thinks you're right. I think it's that they've usually dissappeared before breaking that's confusing me. i.e. i.e you get them into combat when steady it's unusual that they'll break before the first JAP.

Scythed chariots breaking does not cause attrition points, but does cause a cohesion test. Having them removed after combat doesn't.

Having your scythed chariots break near you would be a pretty scary thing as they would career all over the place and might scythe you.

(e.g. Battle of Magnesia)

This thread surely proves the value of Scythed Chariots in sowing confusion among friend and foe, both on the table and around it.

MikeK wrote:This thread surely proves the value of Scythed Chariots in sowing confusion among friend and foe, both on the table and around it.

I have 4 scythed chariots and often use them all in an 800 point later seleucid list.

They are good for keeping enemy LH and cav occupied that woudl otherwise be focussing on your main line. They have a chance of catching light horse if the LH arent careful.
They are great for deploying early to mask deployment plans for little risk.
They are great to ambush on a gentle hill particularly if you only have 12 BGS as the ambush is not obvious - particularly if you take 2 BGs of chariots - the 2nd is often unexpected.

If all they are used for is to line up in front of the army adn charge heavy foot they are not likely to perform well for you.

expendablecinc wrote:They are good for keeping enemy LH and cav occupied that woudl otherwise be focussing on your main line. They have a chance of catching light horse if the LH arent careful.
They are great for deploying early to mask deployment plans for little risk.
They are great to ambush on a gentle hill particularly if you only have 12 BGS as the ambush is not obvious - particularly if you take 2 BGs of chariots - the 2nd is often unexpected.

If all they are used for is to line up in front of the army adn charge heavy foot they are not likely to perform well for you.

In other words they are good at doing what they were not designed or used for.

philqw78 wrote:

expendablecinc wrote:They are good for keeping enemy LH and cav occupied that woudl otherwise be focussing on your main line. They have a chance of catching light horse if the LH arent careful.
They are great for deploying early to mask deployment plans for little risk.
They are great to ambush on a gentle hill particularly if you only have 12 BGS as the ambush is not obvious - particularly if you take 2 BGs of chariots - the 2nd is often unexpected.

If all they are used for is to line up in front of the army adn charge heavy foot they are not likely to perform well for you.

In other words they are good at doing what they were not designed or used for.

To be fair, in general, historically they weren't good at what they were designed for

nikgaukroger wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

expendablecinc wrote:They are good for keeping enemy LH and cav occupied that woudl otherwise be focussing on your main line. They have a chance of catching light horse if the LH arent careful.
They are great for deploying early to mask deployment plans for little risk.
They are great to ambush on a gentle hill particularly if you only have 12 BGS as the ambush is not obvious - particularly if you take 2 BGs of chariots - the 2nd is often unexpected.

If all they are used for is to line up in front of the army adn charge heavy foot they are not likely to perform well for you.

In other words they are good at doing what they were not designed or used for.

To be fair, in general, historically they weren't good at what they were designed for

However, we've only really got histories from their opponents. It may be that the users thought "we'll stick some blades on those old chariots, use those half trained horses that the cavalry have not use for and get 50 brave idiots to drive them at the enemy. They'll do nothing, of course, but they will gain us 15 minutes to deploy while the enemy slaughter them and they'll cost us nothing in real terms"