Slitherine

I will probably do an Early 30y War Swedish army, myself. Mostly because that is the army that I have been most interested in from a historical standpoint.

The salvo-armed foot look awfully fierce, assuming that they can actually get into contact with the enemy. They will not be winning any shooting duels, and protecting the flanks might be tough. I like the concept of the elite Finnish Haakapeliita, but I am not convinced that cavaliers will be what I need to protect the flanks of my "Color regiments" during their headlong rush to contact.

I guess I've just got to try it and see what happens.

Marc

From what I have read and number crunched I think the Early Swedes are a lot like the Romans were in a&m, best foot around, but the mounted will let them down. Be interesting to see if the theory about elites being a waste of points still holds true in these rules as they seem to do in a&m.

Will there be a few Fog(R) tourneys at future Cold Wars, Historicons etc Marc ?

Scrumpy wrote: Will there be a few Fog(R) tourneys at future Cold Wars, Historicons etc Marc ?

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: there will be a FoG:R event at Fall In this year. Just sort a learning event, run by Mike Kelley. Thanks for reminding me to post it.

Marc

I disagree about the Swedes and shooting,

At long range with a regimental (without) they are better than the Germans in Tercios, Germans 2 die at -, Swedes 3 die at 0 (2 at 0)
When they close to short range the Germans are 3 die at 0 the swedes are 3 die at 0 (2 die at 0).

It only takes them 1 move to cover the short range gap.

The Sewdes worry is flank protection they have to keep the enemy cavalry in front of their cavalry and if their opponent is not impact mounted they shouldn't have to worry about their opponent charging them.

German shot fire at 1 die per base at close range, and why will they be on a - ? I thought you counted the worst armour in a unit as the target armour.

So I make it they will fire 2 rounds at long range, and 2 at close range giving an average of 1 hit at long and 2 at short, the Swedes could in theory be down a few bases by the time they close in. having seen their horse, I worked out that Cuirassier will be at evens in impact, but superior cuirassier would get a slight advantage due to their re-rol, and in melee the Swedes should be at a - for worse armour, so even if they were rolling 6 dice at 5 that should balance out on average with 4 dice on 4 with the re-roll being a slight advantage again.

No doubt a few games in we will change our views on what does & doesn't sound good or work in these rules, looking forward to seeing what people discover about them.

Personally my main problem with a&m was on the rare moments of brilliance where I set up a perfect trap for someone, my dice crapped all over me & I fragged at impact from flank charging an opponent. Hoping for better luck with these rules.

donkiesrus2003 wrote:I disagree about the Swedes and shooting,

At long range with a regimental (without) they are better than the Germans in Tercios, Germans 2 die at -, Swedes 3 die at 0 (2 at 0)
When they close to short range the Germans are 3 die at 0 the swedes are 3 die at 0 (2 die at 0).

It only takes them 1 move to cover the short range gap.

The Sewdes worry is flank protection they have to keep the enemy cavalry in front of their cavalry and if their opponent is not impact mounted they shouldn't have to worry about their opponent charging them.

I agree that the bigger problem is the Swedish mounted. But the Swedes will be shooting at a - POA at long range, just like the muskets, and rolling less dice at short range.

Marc

donkiesrus2003 wrote:I disagree about the Swedes and shooting,

At long range with a regimental (without) they are better than the Germans in Tercios, Germans 2 die at -, Swedes 3 die at 0 (2 at 0)
When they close to short range the Germans are 3 die at 0 the swedes are 3 die at 0 (2 die at 0).

It only takes them 1 move to cover the short range gap.

The Sewdes worry is flank protection they have to keep the enemy cavalry in front of their cavalry and if their opponent is not impact mounted they shouldn't have to worry about their opponent charging them.

the Swedes would need to move into 6 mu range the Germans would get 2 Musket dice and a regimental gun dice(all German armies that i have faced have them) three dice needing 4's to hit.

In the Germans move they either stay outside four and fire again with three dice

Swedes move into short range the germans now fire 4 musket and one gun total 5 dice needing fours to hit

Thats 11 dice needing 4's to hit lots of shots and in this game no +2 saving dice roll.

Of course this is without artillery which for me has destroyed a Swedish regiment of superior before it got to the half way line.

So no don't think they are super if they get in combat they are hard to stop.

Units in Swedish Brigade formation take their armour from the pike so they are armoured whilst the Germans are unarmoured.
That is why the Germans are minus at long range but the Swedes are not.

As for your other point you are right we were playing it wrong

So 2 rounds at long range yes, but the Sewdes are at the advantage there so if not under atillery fire they can stay and blast, when the Germans close to avoid getting pummeled in the firefight as earlier Tercios when they lose a muket base they drop to a single die at long range you are going to charge with the Swedes in the impact phase after 1 round of close fire.

The Swedes are not penalised in being worse for armour as if used properly they will count as protected hose see below.

CS DH DH CS DH DH CS
CS DH DH CS DH DH CS

The CS protect the Determined Horse and the Determined Horse protect the CS. It the Germans charge the CS they fight at a minus and their better armour is cancelled by the DH being protected. Since DH are 2 die per base in the front rank and no rear ranks counting losing a base in melee will not drop the number of die in the ensuing melee unlike the German Horse, also the German Horse once committed cannot break off as DH counts as shock mtd.

I can appreciate the luck crapping out as I write these posts I know this is what happened but I am certain that in future my luck will run out and I'll be wanting an army with more bits.

Must have read it wrong, I thought you fired at the worst armoured troops not the best if there was a choice.

donkiesrus2003 wrote:Units in Swedish Brigade formation take their armour from the pike so they are armoured whilst the Germans are unarmoured.
That is why the Germans are minus at long range but the Swedes are not.

You don't count the BG's as armoured when shooting as you count the majority bases ie your 4 shot at unarmoured and three armoured pike.

You count the armour class in melee only.

Scrumpy wrote:Must have read it wrong, I thought you fired at the worst armoured troops not the best if there was a choice.

You were right in a swedish brigade of 3 armoured pike and 4 unarmoured shot you fire at the battlegroup as if they were unarmoured(more unarmoured) ie 4's with musket and 5 with artillery.

In combat you count the armour.

Look at page 122
you take the majority armour class in the front rank, if tied you take the lowest so both the early and late tercios are unarmoured for shooting.
The exception is the Swedish brigade formation which takes its armour from the front rank of pike which is armoured. This is also on page 122.

Aha, sneaky Swedish bastards.

donkiesrus2003 wrote:Look at page 122
you take the majority armour class in the front rank, if tied you take the lowest so both the early and late tercios are unarmoured for shooting.
The exception is the Swedish brigade formation which takes its armour from the front rank of pike which is armoured. This is also on page 122.

I had missed the exception for Swedish brigades. Very nice. That does make them more survivable.

Marc

Looking at page 122 it says the minus for shooting armoured troops is only that for shots at long range? is that right I mean is it four to hit when in close range then?

Don, I have tried the CS/DH combination but to get that many CS you will be VERY light on either commanders or Brigades. You are also very vulnerable to shooty Cav. They stand and shoot at you in single rank at long range and you either charge them and lose formation or stand and take it. Dragoons and LH are especially good at that.

I hope you prove me wrong but I think most armies well handled with good terrain will make your army feel VERY narrow and very vulnerable on the flanks.

Yuppers, 4 dice at 4s. Trouble is them Swedes will charge you.

They have to survive 2 rounds of 4 or 5 shots at 4s. Average will lose a base or 2 and be down to Dis. If you have taken shooting on the way in you could be down 3 bases and Frag. I know I have done it.

I hopefully have Swiss in my mailbox when I get home today. I had no clue what their game effect is, as my rulebooks should be in my box as well, but really enjoyed reading some of the resources people shared with me about the period with them.

Swiss inperiod are fun.