Slitherine

The problem is that if I am playing as Spaniards, say, against Seleucids, my best (ie only) available close order cavalry will evade against almost any Seleucid close order cavalry under almost all circumstances. This makes it rather useless.

IF I knew BEFORE the battle that my cavalry would evade against all enemy cavalry (bar lights) I could plan accordingly. Sadly that information is not available in advance. You might argue that one simply learns through experience (though that is an argument for having everything hidden under the bonnet and no feedback beyond results) but it can ruin games that would otherwise be close fought until one oes become aware. But who would have thought that Late Macedonian companions would evade against their Seleucid counterparts? Would they have done that in reality? Like hell.

Paisley wrote:But who would have thought that Late Macedonian companions would evade against their Seleucid counterparts? Would they have done that in reality? Like hell.

Not so sure. The whole point of moving away from lance armed cavalry was to adopt a more skirmishy style of fighting. (e.g. See books on Roman cavalry training).

One of the bugbears that I have with cavalry evades is the distance and direction of the evading move. If, as in Richard's post above, the evade move can be read as a skirmish to avoid lance-armed cavalry, then why evade so far? Or burst through your own troops when there is a clear avenue to go down?

Evading moves also seem to regularly leave cavalry favourably positioned to the enemy's rear. There is no movement penalty in the following turn, so it is in effect a free move, bypassing zones of control, into a highly advantageous position. It seems unrealistic to me for a unit to keep having its regular move and an evade move with no penalty.

Cheers,

Keyth

Yes, why should an evade move be more than two hexes?

Paisley wrote:Yes, why should an evade move be more than two hexes?

I am guessing because in the TT game troops evade a whole move +- a variable amount. However, in the TT game chargers follow them likewise, whereas in FOGPC they usually only go into the hex the evaders vacated. This is why it seems odd. It would not seem odd them moving so far if the enemy were hot on their heels and had a chance of catching them (as in FOGTT). Especially bearing in mind that in FOGTT evaders end their move with their backs to the enemy, so if they get caught it counts as a rear attack - ouchie!

So, next question, why can evaders move past adjacent enemy units when ordinarily they would not be able to? The whole mechanism does not seem to stand up to close scrutiny.

keyth wrote:So, next question, why can evaders move past adjacent enemy units when ordinarily they would not be able to? The whole mechanism does not seem to stand up to close scrutiny.

In the TT game troops only avoid the "zone of control" of enemy units when doing voluntary moves. When evading, their mind is concentrated on running away and they are not being so careful.

Whether this translates OK to the PC version is questionable, but there is a logic to it, even if that logic can be disagreed with.

I don't think it would be an issue if the evaders did not get a free turn at the end of the move. (As in the TT version).

rbodleyscott wrote:I don't think it would be an issue if the evaders did not get a free turn at the end of the move. (As in the TT version).

Agree 100%. Don't get me wrong, I am really enjoying the game, but this part of it seems to operate outside of the 'normal' rules, hence the bafflement of a number of players I guess.

Yes, Setting up a Cavalry Screen is pretty much useless!!!!

If the pursuers followed up (stopping one hex short) then I think that'd be okay.

Or if evades were two hexes (or one or two more if needed to pass through friends) and the attackers remained static as they do now.

Or if 'inferior' non light cavalry did not evade superior but instead broke off at the end of the turn.

Bu at present, evading for non missile armed cavalry seems unbalanced, it favours the attacker too much in terms of advantage gained and what's worse is it's often unpredictable until it's too late (and not unpredictable in a good way).

Doh! You're starting me off about cavalry again!

I agree with all the gripes listed above (and more):
- Effectively useless cavalry because they won't stand.
- Evading through rows of troops despite clear a clear path.
- Ignoring 'ZOC'
- Evading to better positions
- Can't catch skirmishers

I'm not going to write my reams of essays again, but I'll summarise a few suggestions for improvement. These may not be 'historically accurate', but I believe will make a more enjoyable (which is subjective, I know )game.

Effectively useless cavalry because they won't stand
I understand the logic here, but there are 2 suggestions for improvement
1) Make it controllable (shift click) to toggle between skirmish mode (evades) and combat mode (stand and fight). I'm sure there are times when a cavalry commander 'takes one for the team' by engaging a superior opponent knowing that if he doesn't hold the whole army is at risk
2) Make it less prescriptive, i.e. just don't compare percentages and run, but if they are similar types (e.g. Drilled, Superior, Armoured), then give a reasonable chance that they will stand.
For both of the above it may be a test is required, that can be improved by close commander, supporting units, etc.

Evading through rows of troops despite clear a clear path
Not much to say here, other than better logic to be applied.

Ignoring 'ZOC'
I understand that in a panic a unit may take a chance and run through Zones Of Control, but surely it shouldn't be free? I'm sure other troops would have a few pops at the passing troops. Why not implement a cohesion test or take a percentage of a normal hit (e.g. 50% of an attack from the troops), or both?

Evading to better positions
If a troop evades then then why not implement a cohesion test? It seems reasonable that the troop has fled in a hurry and may have less cohesion. The unit should certainly be facing away from the point it evaded from. Alternative, why not make a CMT on the following go to see if enough order has been restored before they can move? Drilled superior troops with a commander nearby are much more likely to come to good order and get going again faster than undrilled poor troops.

Can't catch skirmishers
2 options;
1) If the skirmisher is 2 hexes away it can be caught.
2) Have a random element to how far the skirmishers will move away, perhaps related to their quality and training?
Or a combination of both.

I really hope that Slitherine looks at these points and seriously considers the suggestions - or other alternatives.

OK, soap box is now put away

Can't stop myself: Just do away with evading non-light troops and give evading light troops a chance of getting caught like on the TT.

Deeter

deeter wrote:Can't stop myself: Just do away with evading non-light troops and give evading light troops a chance of getting caught like on the TT.

Deeter

Eliminating evasion for cavalry would be worse than the current behavior. Evasion needs to be fixed for cavalry, not eliminated. If evasion was eliminated for cavalry, then a lot of cavalry like bow armed or light spear armed that isn't armoured and superior or better morale would be effectively useless and way overpriced. Unlike cataphracts or shock cavalry, other cavalry should evade when charged by pikes and elephants and similar, not stand and take it. I would see no problem with giving cavalry that is "set" to skirmish taking some penalty in melee, e.g. - 1 POA or maybe lose some attacks in melee (to represent not having a second rank) if it does choose to fight but the ability to evade should not be eliminated for cavalry.

Chris

batesmotel wrote:

deeter wrote:Can't stop myself: Just do away with evading non-light troops and give evading light troops a chance of getting caught like on the TT.

Deeter

Eliminating evasion for cavalry would be worse than the current behavior. Evasion needs to be fixed for cavalry, not eliminated. If evasion was eliminated for cavalry, then a lot of cavalry like bow armed or light spear armed that isn't armoured and superior or better morale would be effectively useless and way overpriced. Unlike cataphracts or shock cavalry, other cavalry should evade when charged by pikes and elephants and similar, not stand and take it. I would see no problem with giving cavalry that is "set" to skirmish taking some penalty in melee, e.g. - 1 POA or maybe lose some attacks in melee (to represent not having a second rank) if it does choose to fight but the ability to evade should not be eliminated for cavalry.

Chris

Agreed. Horse archer Cavalry needs to be rebalanced, but not by stopping them from evading.

HA cav certainly needs rebalancing. I'm facing Bosporan armies with depressing regularity now. I hope something, anything is done to fix evasion.

Deeter

rbodleyscott wrote: ...
Agreed. Horse archer Cavalry needs to be rebalanced, but not by stopping them from evading.

Getting rid of the free face for non skirmishing shooters would do that. While I think the game would benefit overall from allowing undrilled cavalry to change face by one hex side after movement, it would clearly help the game a great deal to get rid of the free face for non LF and LH shooters. (Of course drilled cavalry horse archers would probably still be too effective.)

Beyond that something should be done to make interpenetration reduce or prevent missile fire by BGs which interpenetrated or were interpenetrated this turn, and maybe to limit the maximum number of hits a BG can take in a turn from missile fire. That would certainly reduce the machine gun effect of concentrating waves of horse archers or skirmishers against a single BG to effectively gun it down.

Chris

deeter wrote:HA cav certainly needs rebalancing. I'm facing Bosporan armies with depressing regularity now. I hope something, anything is done to fix evasion.

Deeter

With evasion broken, doesn't that make it easier to catch the Bosporan horse archers? They seem to like to stand to be charged by things like Thureophoroi which are even at impact and up in melee .

Chris