Slitherine

Strategos69 wrote:I think that their Romans look ugly because of a poor painting on the website,

It's not so much because of the paintjob, but the really inappropriate poses (exception kneeling triarii). The attacking poses wield their heavy scutum like a fencing buckler!

Mehrunes wrote:

Strategos69 wrote:I think that their Romans look ugly because of a poor painting on the website,

It's not so much because of the paintjob, but the really inappropriate poses (exception kneeling triarii). The attacking poses wield their heavy scutum like a fencing buckler!

I do not share your opinion. Well, first the shields are not attached and so it was the painter's decision to attach them that way. Secondly, legionary scuta were not embraced but grasped from the central part. This is not a Republican scutum but the general architecture of the shield is the same:



So, now, if we think that we are throwing something like the pila, how would we hold the scutum? Some other manufacturers have done so, by the way, like Corvus Belli. Take a look at how this reenarctors hold the scutum. I am not saying that the shield could not be held tighter to the body, but both depictions are in my opinion about right.




And if we think about the principes attacking with a sword, it is known that the shield could be used both defensively, closer to the body, and offensively, as shown in Warmodelling miniatures. That way the legionary would hit his opponent with the shield first (probably the enemy's shield) and then slide the sword from below in the now exposed abdomen of the enemy.



So, yes the legionary scutum was probably held like a fencing buckler many times in battle!

Pictures from the renactors group:
http://www.legionsix.org

They have many interesting ones.

I held one of those accurate rebuilt scutum shields by myself and it's a very heavy thing. Yes, they might used it to bash the opponent's shield from time to time but that's far from using it as a buckler. The first picture seems appropriate, I doubt the duel-like situation in the second picture to depict roman close-formation battle properly. Note also that they are using latex weapons in that picture for show combat. Maybe the shield is built from lighter materials too. Then you are tempted to use it in a different way.
Legionaries who opened their defence in such a way to engage the enemy (e.g. celt) in fencing action would have endangered the whole formation and be whipped after the battle if not dead anyway by then.

But of course this is all personal taste and I think the Warmodelling miniatures are rather ugly. You won't convince me of the opposite. Nor would I convince you.

Mehrunes wrote:I held one of those accurate rebuilt scutum shields by myself and it's a very heavy thing. Yes, they might used it to bash the opponent's shield from time to time but that's far from using it as a buckler. The first picture seems appropriate, I doubt the duel-like situation in the second picture to depict roman close-formation battle properly. Note also that they are using latex weapons in that picture for show combat. Maybe the shield is built from lighter materials too. Then you are tempted to use it in a different way.
Legionaries who opened their defence in such a way to engage the enemy (e.g. celt) in fencing action would have endangered the whole formation and be whipped after the battle if not dead anyway by then.

But of course this is all personal taste and I think the Warmodelling miniatures are rather ugly. You won't convince me of the opposite. Nor would I convince you.

"The standard of a legion, the so-called aquila (eagle) was the very symbol of the unit's honour. The aquilifer who was the man who carried the standard was in rank almost as high as a centurion. It was this elevated and honourable position which also made him the soldiers' treasurer in charge of the pay chest.
A legion on the march relied completely on its own resources for weeks. To make camp each night every man carried tools for digging as well as two stakes for a palisade.http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html
Apart from this and his weapons and armour, the legionary would also carry a cooking pot, some rations, clothes and any personal possessions.
Weighed down by such burdens it is little wonder that the soldiers were nicknamed 'Marius' Mules'."
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

Marching and Physical Training
The first thing the soldiers were taught to do, was to march. ...For this, we are told by Vegetius, during the summer months the soldiers were to be marched twenty Roman miles (18.4 miles/29.6 km), which had to be completed in five hours.
A further part of basic military training was also physical exercise. Vegetius mentions running, long and high jump and carrying heavy packs.
During the summer swimming was also a part of training. If their camp was near the sea, a lake or river, every recruit was made to swim.
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/training.html

With all due respect to re-enactors (who have contributed a lot of good data to our hobbies) I doubt that many are in the physical condition of the professional Roman soldier in his 20s or 30s. I don't have problems with the drilled use of the scutum as a proactive defense tool.

I too am not taken with the Warmodelling minis - just a matter of taste. The Testudo Romans are head and shoulders the best Marians out there - again as my own opinion.