Slitherine

I do not have the rules with me, however, I believe they state that you cannot choose to form an illegal formation. For example, feeding in bases is a choice, you get to pick the bases. Casualty removal, if the figure is taken from where most damage is inflicted, may not be a choice. This can leave an illegal formation.

Roger, this thread has further confused me so I will run it past you tonight.

Rob

Blame Blathergut for bringing in the whole pikes versus 2 battle groups issue back up again, which by the way had nothing to do with the intial question here...
Typical Roman ploy, confuse and then tromp you.

Actually, it was kind of the same question. Could bases take the place of the lost one from anywhere or from behind. Feeding in can't be from any affecting combat. But, am not about to reargue the whole thing. Seems there will always be three or four different viewpoints/interpretations of the rules. I would have thought "shuffle forward" to be pretty clear but apparently even that is being interpreted differently.

rogerg wrote:I do not have the rules with me, however, I believe they state that you cannot choose to form an illegal formation. For example, feeding in bases is a choice, you get to pick the bases. Casualty removal, if the figure is taken from where most damage is inflicted, may not be a choice. This can leave an illegal formation.

I cannot find any reference to what you are saying. Again, at p 23 there are the only 4 exceptions for which BG can be not in normal formation, and casualty removal is not among them. If you find a rules which states what you are saying please let me know, because this will change the situation drastically.

marioslaz wrote:

rogerg wrote:I do not have the rules with me, however, I believe they state that you cannot choose to form an illegal formation. For example, feeding in bases is a choice, you get to pick the bases. Casualty removal, if the figure is taken from where most damage is inflicted, may not be a choice. This can leave an illegal formation.

I cannot find any reference to what you are saying. Again, at p 23 there are the only 4 exceptions for which BG can be not in normal formation, and casualty removal is not among them. If you find a rules which states what you are saying please let me know, because this will change the situation drastically.

Mario, if you follow through that thread I linked above, you'll see that we had the same discussion. Simon pointed out that there were times when BGs could be out of formation. Now, as to just exactly what it says in the rules, what author(s) say, how souls interpret both, I guess that will always be the sticky point. In truth, I have no idea how to point you to the correct answer, other than showing that thread. It's what I'm basing it on. We never did hear from any other authors on it, though Simon did mention another and that they both interpreted the situation the same way (again, mentioned in that thread). It's a rare situation for sure, maybe only possible with pikes, not sure. Those back 3rd and fourth ranks didn't have to move over and during feeding of additional bases they couldn't.

Pikes aside the troops who were to be fed in were at the end of the battle line twiddling their thumbs not acting as overlaps or engaged in melee so are free to be fed into an existing combat to take the place of a dead stand as long as they remain thumb twiddlers.

Curse those darn pikes, guess our situation never occured during testing. Better argue the whole formation thing in that thread guys.

marioslaz wrote:

sagji wrote:Or any of the other exceptions apply - such as a compulsory move

I agree, but we are talking about casualties melee and until you are in a melee you cannot do compulsory move

sagji wrote:Reforming is only required if you make a move.

Why? Read again p 23 please. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. There are 4 exceptions, but base removal is not between them. Then read Reforming at p 70. Paragraph starts saying: "If, as consequences of previous events, ..." Rules talk about events, not moves. So, if a BG is not in a normal formation due to base removal, it must reform.

P70 says a BG can reform, and also says when it must (to make a voluntary move)
If a BG is out of formation because of an event - such as taking a loss, and then making the compulsary move to replace the front rank base, and this leaves the BG out of formation this does not require the BG to reform - it is out of formation because it made a compulsory move and so has an exception.
Once a BG gets an exception that allows it to be out of formation that exception applies untill it chooses to reform.

thanks for the clear explanation...was fumbling with this olde brain to say that!

sagji wrote:

marioslaz wrote:

sagji wrote:Or any of the other exceptions apply - such as a compulsory move

I agree, but we are talking about casualties melee and until you are in a melee you cannot do compulsory move

sagji wrote:Reforming is only required if you make a move.

Why? Read again p 23 please. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. There are 4 exceptions, but base removal is not between them. Then read Reforming at p 70. Paragraph starts saying: "If, as consequences of previous events, ..." Rules talk about events, not moves. So, if a BG is not in a normal formation due to base removal, it must reform.

P70 says a BG can reform, and also says when it must (to make a voluntary move)
If a BG is out of formation because of an event - such as taking a loss, and then making the compulsary move to replace the front rank base, and this leaves the BG out of formation this does not require the BG to reform - it is out of formation because it made a compulsory move and so has an exception.
Once a BG gets an exception that allows it to be out of formation that exception applies untill it chooses to reform.

Again? Then, I repeat: please, read p 23. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. Is casualty removal in the list of exceptions? I cannot find it. Is base removal a compulsory move? I don't think. So, when you remove a base, BG must end in a normal formation (unless, of course, fighting in two or more directions). Don't you like this? Make whatever you want. We use some house rules in our game, but only for our pleasure. We don't try to impose our house rules to other players as official rules because our house rules are not in rulebook.

This was also from that other thread:

Spoke to Terry last night and his view was the same as my orignal view - you can do either. He also plays that abnormal formations can occur in combat.

Looking at the rules again the claimed restrcition on using bases that provide a dice or a POA ctied by someone actually applies to feeding more bases in, not to base removal and replacement.

Really the intent of this is very simple : you can be forced out of normal formation by the chaos of battle, but must then reform back into normal formation before you move again (and can do so for free at anytime in the manouvre phase). That's it - nothing to clever.

So revert to my original answer and take the above as the simple intent.

If there are further issues suggest someone starts another stream as its got rather confused.

Si

Blathergut wrote:This was also from that other thread:

Spoke to Terry last night and his view was the same as my orignal view - you can do either. He also plays that abnormal formations can occur in combat.

Looking at the rules again the claimed restrcition on using bases that provide a dice or a POA ctied by someone actually applies to feeding more bases in, not to base removal and replacement.

Really the intent of this is very simple : you can be forced out of normal formation by the chaos of battle, but must then reform back into normal formation before you move again (and can do so for free at anytime in the manouvre phase). That's it - nothing to clever.

So revert to my original answer and take the above as the simple intent.

If there are further issues suggest someone starts another stream as its got rather confused.

Si

The opinion of Si is interesting, but isn't what it's written in the rules, and he clearly admit this in the thread. We are quite critical about rules, and in fact we use some house rules to adapt game to our taste, but in this case we are very comfortable with rules and we think this kind of interpretation can led to unfair behaviour.
More, I found a little of time to read the thread. This is also from the thread:

sagji wrote:You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

This filling is not a compulsory move, so doesn't enable you to disregard the normal formation rule.
If however the BG is already out of formation (perhaps because it has stepped forward) your aren't required to (indeed normally can't) follow the normal formation rule.

and also:

Blathergut wrote:p23...only a rear rank can have fewer bases

You both sustained with strength what now you oppose. This for me is enough to blame you as flamers and me as a stupid because I didn't notice before.

You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

Regarding the above:

First line, does it have to be from the rank directly in front of the BG that inflicted the damage? Do overlaps and those outside overlap not count as facing the BG, i.e. not directly in front?

Second line, is that any rear rank base i.e. from overlaps or those outside overlap? I was trying from those outside my overlap as they weren't contributing to combat and would save me losing a base in combat as well as a POA.

Thanks

Rob

I already gave my answer and I don't want give a pretext for new confrontations.
I found a very funny thing: if I didn't fail my calculation, the use of a such unfair behaviour gives no advantage at all, but, on the contrary, in many cases gives a worst chance

I was only trying to explain a point, not flame or confront. The quote about rear ranks only was part of the whole discussion with me arguing your point exactly. It was pointed out that that was not the intent of the rules. Play how you will...enjoy the game. I sure do. But I'm not trying to hassle or confront you or anyone. The question came up in a game, we asked here about it, and got that response from rules author and went on to enjoy more games.

Robert241167 wrote:You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

Regarding the above:

First line, does it have to be from the rank directly in front of the BG that inflicted the damage? Do overlaps and those outside overlap not count as facing the BG, i.e. not directly in front?

Second line, is that any rear rank base i.e. from overlaps or those outside overlap? I was trying from those outside my overlap as they weren't contributing to combat and would save me losing a base in combat as well as a POA.

Thanks

Rob

If your base is overlapping the enemy BG then in general it will not be facing that BG, so you can't remove it. It might be facing it in a non-conformed melee, or in impact you might have bases that are facing the enemy BG but which did not fight, in which cases you could remove those bases. Anyway, the rule is absolutely clear that you must remove a base that is facing the enemy BG (not necessarily one faced by the enemy BG). This means that you can't remove a base if the enemy BG only overlaps you and none of your bases is facing it.

IMO the authors intended that you remove a base that had had "to hit" dice rolled against it, or could have had dice that were lost rolled against it (so not one in overlap), but this isn't what they wrote.

When filling the vacated front rank position you do not have to use a rear rank, you just can't use a front rank base (barring exceptional circumstances). The rules say it can come from any part of your BG, which means it can come from any part of your BG. So you can (but don't have to) take it from outside the overlap.

marioslaz wrote:

Blathergut wrote:This was also from that other thread:

Spoke to Terry last night and his view was the same as my orignal view - you can do either. He also plays that abnormal formations can occur in combat.

Looking at the rules again the claimed restrcition on using bases that provide a dice or a POA ctied by someone actually applies to feeding more bases in, not to base removal and replacement.

Really the intent of this is very simple : you can be forced out of normal formation by the chaos of battle, but must then reform back into normal formation before you move again (and can do so for free at anytime in the manouvre phase). That's it - nothing to clever.

So revert to my original answer and take the above as the simple intent.

If there are further issues suggest someone starts another stream as its got rather confused.

Si

The opinion of Si is interesting, but isn't what it's written in the rules, and he clearly admit this in the thread. We are quite critical about rules, and in fact we use some house rules to adapt game to our taste, but in this case we are very comfortable with rules and we think this kind of interpretation can led to unfair behaviour.
More, I found a little of time to read the thread. This is also from the thread:

sagji wrote:You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

This filling is not a compulsory move, so doesn't enable you to disregard the normal formation rule.
If however the BG is already out of formation (perhaps because it has stepped forward) your aren't required to (indeed normally can't) follow the normal formation rule.

and also:

Blathergut wrote:p23...only a rear rank can have fewer bases

You both sustained with strength what now you oppose. This for me is enough to blame you as flamers and me as a stupid because I didn't notice before.

Or alternatively we listen to arguments, and are open to persuasion. In the thread you quote from Si convinced me that filling in is a compulsory move, and thus is able to break formation.

marioslaz wrote:

sagji wrote:

marioslaz wrote: I agree, but we are talking about casualties melee and until you are in a melee you cannot do compulsory move
Why? Read again p 23 please. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. There are 4 exceptions, but base removal is not between them. Then read Reforming at p 70. Paragraph starts saying: "If, as consequences of previous events, ..." Rules talk about events, not moves. So, if a BG is not in a normal formation due to base removal, it must reform.

P70 says a BG can reform, and also says when it must (to make a voluntary move)
If a BG is out of formation because of an event - such as taking a loss, and then making the compulsary move to replace the front rank base, and this leaves the BG out of formation this does not require the BG to reform - it is out of formation because it made a compulsory move and so has an exception.
Once a BG gets an exception that allows it to be out of formation that exception applies untill it chooses to reform.

Again? Then, I repeat: please, read p 23. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. Is casualty removal in the list of exceptions? I cannot find it. Is base removal a compulsory move? I don't think. So, when you remove a base, BG must end in a normal formation (unless, of course, fighting in two or more directions). Don't you like this? Make whatever you want. We use some house rules in our game, but only for our pleasure. We don't try to impose our house rules to other players as official rules because our house rules are not in rulebook.

The list of exceptions on p23 is not complete.
Removing a casualty must be an exception - unless 1 base wide it is impossible to remove a front rank base and remain in formation.
Filling in to replace a casualty has be defined by the authors as a compulsory move, so is an exception.

The rules on p23 define what normal formation is, and impose a restriction on what formation you can adopt when you change formation. They don't give you the ability to reform at will, or to move additional bases.

You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

to 1 above, yes ou remove a base from in front of the enemy that caused the most hits on it.
2 you can fill the vacated position during the next manouver phase by moving a base from the battle group that is not currently in combat or in an overlap postion, ie it can't be rolling dice during the melee phase since its occupied with fighting.

deadtorius wrote:

You must remove a front rank base facing the BG that inficted the most damage.
You must then fill the vacated front rank position - with a rear rank base.

to 1 above, yes ou remove a base from in front of the enemy that caused the most hits on it.
2 you can fill the vacated position during the next manouver phase by moving a base from the battle group that is not currently in combat or in an overlap postion, ie it can't be rolling dice during the melee phase since its occupied with fighting.

Your 2 is incorrect.

When you take a front rank loss you MUST IMMEDIATLY replace it if possible - this is in the rules on taking losses.
When feeding in bases you can do so only by expanding, or by contracting - if you took a loss and could not replace it at the time the chances are you can't replace it by feeding more bases in because even if you now have bases available the chances are it isn't an expansion, and a contraction requires all the bases in the contracted file be moved to positions where they contribute.