Slitherine

thx for ur input.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am weak:
FastLearner ==> It is a "medium" hero. The longer the campaign is the harder it is to build up new units. This hero helps a lot, especially in training scenarios. And it helps units who get experience slowly.

The benefit is certainly highest on low xp units. since all ur units will be 0 xp at the start, this is the max efficient that hero gets. My reasoning to put it in weak is that u cannot afford to buy all strong heros early campaign since u lack the prestige to do so.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am FieldRepairs ==> at least medium hero. Only chance to keep prototypes in game when you run out of stock. It also saves you prestige. This hero gets stronger >1942...
FirstAid ==> useless hero, you cant compare it with field repairs imo. Infantry has more hp and is cheaper to repair.

Since i have a tendency to keep my prototypes out of harms way i rarely have field repairs on them. i usually have them on heavy artillerie or big AA guns, since the prestige gain is the highest here.
While i agree that first aid generates less prestige per use, my infantry tends to take more losses than any other unit, maybe except air recons. thus the gain is less per use but more often. hard to say which is more effective, but i disagree with the useless. especially 41+ when SdKfz are around refilling inf that got a beating gets expensive. When pressed for prestige, moving the infantry to a supply hex to remove the transport before refilling might be a thing. i never tried that though.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am NoSurrender ==> medium hero. Depends on the situation but can be extremly useful. Nothing is more annoying than losing a unit because of suppression.
Survivor ==> medium hero. You can get this as an awards, but as long as you dont abuse tactics to get these rewards this hero is very useful for some heroes. All my recons get a survivor if possible.
CounterBattery ==> maybe medium hero. It helps your guns to get awards and sometimes it is enough that the AI wont fire on you.

I agree on the survivor. I´ll move it up one category.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am mediocre:
AggressiveCounterattack ==> I have never noticed a difference with this hero, for me almost useless
AimingAssistance ==> weak hero. Better in the early years of the war. You have to put the unit in the right location, can be annoying.

the plus 3 str works on evry attack. makes sense on units that have a weak attack stat. one easy example is self proppeled AT guns that tend to get raped by towed AT-guns. this hero changes that a bit.
AimingAssistance is like the only decent way to get experience on fighter planes, but i agree that it´s more usefull early war than late. i´ll move it down 1 category to make it better available early war.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am FastRebase ==> weak hero. Most of you the time you wont use it or you can simply play around it.

i totaly disagree on that one. my first intention was to put it in strong. especially fighterplanes benefit hugely from this one since they can easily be all across the map if needed to cover a unit or take down enemy planes.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am FearsomeReputation ==> just weak
FlagKiller ==> weak/useless. Your units has to be in the right position at the right time. Only might work a few times in a scenario.

Fearsome reputation is like an additional artillerie strike on the unit. I usually move evrything into position next to a town i want to attack and then take it next turn. The fearsome reputation tends to be on recons before 41 and on StuGIIIb after.
The FlagKiller is very helpfull on Infantry and StrategicBombers, especially early war u can make 1 slot bomber very effective with Flag Killer.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am Leadership ==> weak
Readiness ==> depends on your playstyle, maybe even strong. Extremly good on fighters on infantry, only way to hold ground vs multiple inf.
EntKiller4 ==> weak. Often without any effect and only useful on some units.

Leadership is a good hero on units supporting tanks and planes since initiative playes a big role in their fights. I often have it on AT-guns.
I agree that readiness is very strong but i didn´t want to put first strike and readiness in the same category, thats why it ended up in mediocre.
i agree that entkiller2 is kinda useless but 4 is another matter. killing off 4 entrenchment is a lot and with this hero some unit types become a lot more usefull, eq tactical bombers.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am strong:
ArtySupport ==> useful, but just medium.
ATSupport ==> a bit stronger that artysupport, but also just medium.
DoubleMove ==> medium. only useful for some units in some cases. No hero I like to get.
FastDeployment ==> medium
LightningAttack ==> not always necessary but very useful; just medium imo
PhasedMovement ==> medium; dont think you really need that on other units than recons
Legendary ==> prestige is always good, but just medium; wasted slot on your units who has to do the work
ZeroSlots ==> maybe not4u, should be restricted to superheroes. This hero can be like +10% more core slots, thats just to good. If you assign this hero you cant assign another hero. Is a limitation like this possible?

I disagree on the 2 support heros. with those added a decent defense becomes untouchable, making even an AI set to agressive stay away.
i agree on the double move, i´ll move it down one category.
FastDeployment turns any towed unit into a self propelled one. Self propelled 21cm or 8.8cm? Infantry that can attack after moving 12 hexes on a road with SdKfz 250? strong shit

ZeroSlots is still a problem to me when it comes to balancing the scenarios. When i do a playthrough to test balance i always ditch zero slots and replace them by a random new one, since those extra slots can make a big diffrence. especially early game when core slots are low.

Since i need to put the script in any scenario anyways i could add a restriction method that prevents certain heros or even all heros from exceeding a certain threshold. that might be a nice idea u set into my mind there.
This would also deal with the "Oh noes, not that one again i already have 1124378164 of it" dilemma.

something else i could do is remove the ZeroSlot hero from the first 2-3 campaigns and put it in the pool once scenarios start to have 100+ core slots. Maybe someone else comes up with an even better idea for this one.

DefiantXYX wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 am not4u:
OnTheRoll ==> why not? Could be interesting, I dont think it might be too strong.
Prudent ==> why not?

OnTheRoll on a steamroller tank with overstrength? no sir if u want that "cheat NewHero OnTheRoll"
Prudent makes units unkillable. an overstrength osttruppen will have 30 something def in all categories when beaten up enough

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:57 pm OnTheRoll on a steamroller tank with overstrength? no sir if u want that "cheat NewHero OnTheRoll"
Prudent makes units unkillable. an overstrength osttruppen will have 30 something def in all categories when beaten up enough

Yeah true you might be right, it is too easy to abuse both skills.

i modified the script to enable it to restrict the number of heros.
i currently only have zeroslots in mind for this.
any other heros u would put on that list? please let me know.

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:36 pm i modified the script to enable it to restrict the number of heros.
i currently only have zeroslots in mind for this.
any other heros u would put on that list? please let me know.

sers,
Thomas

Ohhh!... what the Heck!. An "Insane Entity" that i just thought of would be called the "Neuralyzer"???. What this particular character does when he attacks you is that he will neutralize or render useless all of the capabilities of your "Heroes"... in that particular Unit!. It will then be like the attacked Unit-or-victim had "No-Heroes" at all to begin with!.

Hi Grondel,
I already answered on steam but will copy it here for good measure.

Hi Grondel,

thats another great idea and contribution to the game so I will gladly provode my subjective opinion on the skills after 3100 hours in the game.

weak:
CombatLuck
Distraction
DoubleMassAttack
ExpertSupport
FastLearner
FastRetreat
FerociousDefense
FieldRepairs - mediocre, it allows to keep running an early looted unit like the KV2
FierceFighter
FirstAid
LearnsFromMistakes
NoRetreat
NoSurrender
Resilient
RiverAssault
SixthSense
SkilledRecon
SkilledSupport
SuperiorManeuver
TenaciousDefender
ThoroughPreparation
Unyielding
EntKiller3
CounterBattery
AimingAssistance

mediocre:
AggressiveCounterattack - weak, even if combined with provocator no big effect
AimedShot
Avenger - weak, very situational, never noticed any big impact
Butcher
CityFighter
CripplingBlow
DoubleSupport
Evasive
ExpertRecon
Exterminator - weak, extremeley situational
FastRebase
FearsomeReputation - weak, imho totally useless
FlagKiller - weak, very situational
Liberator
Leadership
LowProfile
OverwhelmingAttack - strong, OP combo with Envelopment or ShockTactics
PreciseOptics - strong, can make for extreme OP combos
Readiness
Famous - weak, not much impact
Scavenger - strong, basically a prestige printer and allows effective capture of rare units
TankKiller - strong, especially if paired with fighters
ReducedSlots
EntKiller4 - weak, maybe usefell 3 times in a campaign
Survivor
DoubleMove

strong:
ArtySupport
ATSupport - mediocre, AI will never attack so it only works with Camo
Camouflage
DoubleAttack
Envelopment
FastDeployment
HitAndRun
IgnoresEntrenchment
IgnoresZOC - mediocre, it nice but not as usefull as it seems at first
IncMaxOverstrength
LethalAttack
LightningAttack
MachineGun
Overrun
PhasedMovement - mediocre, like IgnoresZOC
Provocator
Legendary - mediocre for me, always drown in prestige
ShockTactics - mediocre alone, only strong in combo with OverwhelmingAttack
StrikesFirst
Vigilant - mediocre, great for (flame) tanks but AI will never attack you
ZeroSlots
NoRetaliation

not4u:
Ambusher - never used it but I suppose the AI would never attack units with it so its basically useless if not combined with Prococator
OnTheRoll - no idea why this even exists, more OP is just impossible. An 15 strenght tank with stuff like FirstStrike and MachineGun can easily kill 30 units in a scenario and end up with 50 attack
Prudent - imho totally overated, yes its annoying to play against but for players its mediocre at best. Most of teh times i just dismissed the hero and never used it except for the odd cavalry unit
QuadripleGun - dakkadakkka


Just my 2 cents....
best regards

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:36 pm i modified the script to enable it to restrict the number of heros.
i currently only have zeroslots in mind for this.
any other heros u would put on that list? please let me know.

sers,
Thomas

ZeroSlots is a difficult one. Its imho the best hero skill in the game as it always works for any unit in any situation. It would be annoying not to have any but if you get some lucky rolls you might end up with 10+ in 1942 making the game way too easy.
For my games I limit myself to a maximum of 1 zero slots hero per year and delete the surplus. Maybe it should be limited to one or two but be part of some rare and special heros like Galland, Hartmann or Wittmann.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:44 am

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:36 pm i modified the script to enable it to restrict the number of heros.
i currently only have zeroslots in mind for this.
any other heros u would put on that list? please let me know.

sers,
Thomas

ZeroSlots is a difficult one. Its imho the best hero skill in the game as it always works for any unit in any situation. It would be annoying not to have any but if you get some lucky rolls you might end up with 10+ in 1942 making the game way too easy.
For my games I limit myself to a maximum of 1 zero slots hero per year and delete the surplus. Maybe it should be limited to one or two but be part of some rare and special heros like Galland, Hartmann or Wittmann.

in the 1943campaign there are several zero slot/reduced slot special-heros. since those are always present balancing the game is no big issue with those.
I´ll think about the 1 per year, but feels too much still. Maybe 1 per 2 years.

sers,
Thomas

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am weak:
FieldRepairs - mediocre, it allows to keep running an early looted unit like the KV2

OK, i yield if u all think this ones mediocre.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am mediocre:
AggressiveCounterattack - weak, even if combined with provocator no big effect
Avenger - weak, very situational, never noticed any big impact
Exterminator - weak, extremeley situational
FearsomeReputation - weak, imho totally useless
FlagKiller - weak, very situational

Since most seem to not like those heros i will move them down one category.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am OverwhelmingAttack - strong, OP combo with Envelopment or ShockTactics
PreciseOptics - strong, can make for extreme OP combos
Scavenger - strong, basically a prestige printer and allows effective capture of rare units

I always have ruthless on when playing atm. i might have to change that when the new script is in place and acts as prestige sink. I´ll move those up 1 category.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am Famous - weak, not much impact
TankKiller - strong, especially if paired with fighters
EntKiller4 - weak, maybe usefell 3 times in a campaign

I disagrre on those. Famous prestige generation will be very helpfull with the new prestige sink.
Most maps will have the reserve script with the next update. Fighters will leave the map after air superiority is achieved and be replaced by bombers.
EntKiller4 is usefull in evry scenario i play.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am strong:
ATSupport - mediocre, AI will never attack so it only works with Camo
Legendary - mediocre for me, always drown in prestige
ShockTactics - mediocre alone, only strong in combo with OverwhelmingAttack
Vigilant - mediocre, great for (flame) tanks but AI will never attack you

i disagree on those. Not being attacked conserves prestige, which will be a thing. same reason for legendary. Shock tactics works without OverwhelmingAttack. u just need more effort, but removing the move points of a unit will make it a lot easier to force it to surrender.
I was thinking about removing Vigilant from the game completely since it is very powerful but decided against. It is definitely a very strong hero since it removes the weakness of heavy tanks. with vigilant they can attack Infantry in closed terrain or stay inside without fearing to get bullied by some infantry.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am IgnoresZOC - mediocre, it nice but not as usefull as it seems at first
PhasedMovement - mediocre, like IgnoresZOC

i will move those one category down

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am Ambusher - never used it but I suppose the AI would never attack units with it so its basically useless if not combined with Prococator

This one was never free to players afaik. the only scenario it was used in official content is the thermopylae one in the AO.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am OnTheRoll - no idea why this even exists, more OP is just impossible. An 15 strenght tank with stuff like FirstStrike and MachineGun can easily kill 30 units in a scenario and end up with 50 attack

I think i had one on my first ever base-campaign i played if my memory can be trusted. Was removed from the random pool avail to the player pretty quick.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am Prudent - imho totally overated, yes its annoying to play against but for players its mediocre at best. Most of teh times i
just dismissed the hero and never used it except for the odd cavalry unit

Can be used to make unkillable recons, especially for germany. Infantry gains a lot out of it as well since the extra def is on each def type, including close def.

rivvendarke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am QuadripleGun - dakkadakkka

thx for ur input.

sers,
Thomas

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:57 pm

something else i could do is remove the ZeroSlot hero from the first 2-3 campaigns and put it in the pool once scenarios start to have 100+ core slots. Maybe someone else comes up with an even better idea for this one.

I'll try

One solution for the ZeroSlots Hero might be to remove them from the mod completly and only give them to players via special heros/events during the campaigns. But i wouldnt do this.
Because, yes Zeroslots is strong, but a lot of heros affect balancing. So it wouldnt be possible to perfectly balance the game for all hero cpmbinations. For example:
A good vigilant Tank can spread more havoc among the enemies than an "extra" unit via Zero Slots (depending on the scenario). A double Attack 21cm lethal artillery is stronger than 2 21cm artillery units (1 with the lethal hero, 1 with zero slots).
Overrun is even more powerful than Zeroslots/double if played out correctly.

So if Zeroslots is too muc of an issue, get rid of them, but i prefer playing the heros the game gives me and play around the benefits/problems that rng creates for my core army.

Grondel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:57 pm Prudent makes units unkillable. an overstrength osttruppen will have 30 something def in all categories when beaten up enough

Same idea for prudent. If you give the prudent trait to player only with special heros, for example a recon only hero, the player can have fun with prudent but prudent on recon is useful but not OP (ok maybe with OS20).

On the roll in players hands might be a real fun experience. The easiest way to allow polayers to have some fun with him would be: place him in a aux unit for one scenario in a more seperated area of the battlefield

like in 1943 AO but controlled by the player for one mission

I find it interesting how different players value some heroes more/less than others. My appreciation for some have changed over time too, while others are no-brainers. I've cut and pasted Tassadar's list and then heavily edited it to my own preferences for how I like to play. I'm keeping comments short because I don't want to spent the time explaining my reasons why for everything. You can ask me if you want. I also deleted those that are not actual heroes that you can normally be awarded, like Double Mass Attack.


S Tier - Always welcome, unless it starts to get truly ridiculous in quantity. But isn't that actually true with all heroes? The best collection of heroes always have some semblance of balance.

Double Attack

No Retaliation

Rapid Fire 2x/1.5x

Zero Slots

Camouflage


A Tier - Not top tier, but close and almost always welcome too.

Reduced Slots

Fast Deployment

Ignores Entrenchment

Butcher

Crippling Blow - (Love this one more than most. Like Butcher, Tank Killer, Flag Killer, but applies more broadly to all of those types of units. Combine it with Rapid Fire and you have a powerful overrun Panzer going berserk!

First Strike

Lethal Attack (This one I'm torn to whether it goes here or in the top, top category.)

Lightning Attack

Shock Tactics

Vigilant



B Tier - Always want some, but there is a limit to either its usefulness or how many I "need."

Aiming Assistance

Artillery Support

AT Support

Consolidator

Double Support

Fast Rebase

Flag Killer

Ignores ZOC

Entrenchment Killer 3x/4x (this is higher for me than probably most other players because I always play with the negative trait "Trench Slog")

Tank Killer

Unyielding



C Tier - Always want to have one, sometimes two, but cringe if it exceeds that.

Provocator - My controversial hero placement; it is because of how I play and what I value. There are simpler and easier ways to get the AI to throw themselves to their death. Of course, if I am missing those heroes necessary for that...then this can certainly be a backup. But even then, you need the right units and/or additional heroes to make this work too.

Scavenger - (I believe this one is overvalued; First, unlike Trophies, it does NOT award double the prestige, only double the equipment. A patch some time ago ended the quadrupling of awards when combined with Trophies. I like to have one to go with my Overwhelming-Envelopment/Shock Tactics combo super unit and I do not permit myself to have more than one of those. Thus I have no desire for another Scavenger hero either.)

Expert Support - More beneficial for the early game, or a unit that doesn't have much experience.

Fast Learner - (Early game, but now it and my reward Me 262 are betrothed before I even receive either of them!)

Prudent - This one I value more than I used to. But again, don't want more than 1-2 of them.

Field Repairs - (Always like one for that limited supply unit. I often play with No Artillery and use it on my rocket art reward unit that you get early in AO40. This hero prevents me from running out. I wish they would expand its ability to work on aircraft too. That would give it an even great bump in value.)

Overwhelming Attack

Liberator - (Fine, great for SCW, but prestige is not really an issue in later DLCs so...sometimes I don't even really want/need one of them.

Evasive (Always combine with a hero that has Low Profile, like Wirnsberger, because it does stack.)

Envelopment



D Tier - (I may use it if I have it, but never wish for it or celebrate when I get one. Ever.)

No Surrender (This is the highest of these in this section. It can be useful to stick with Prudent on your Recon so it can do the job and survive. But never want more than one.)

Aggressive Counterattack (Can't hurt, but I agree that its bonus is not sufficient to make much difference. Perhaps it should have always been +5 Attack instead of +3?)

Avenger

Cheap Replacements

Famous

Counter Battery Fire - (limited usefulness unless your art unit has camouflage on it. You otherwise need range for it to truly be effective, and the big guns that have 4 range also already come with it. So...not so useful in the end in actual application.

Fearsome Reputation

Readiness (First strike is much superior and therefore preferred, but probably the best of these in this section)

Resilient

Ferocious Defense

Learns From Mistakes

Sixth Sense

Legendary

Tenacious Defender

Superior Maneuver

Thorough Preparation (If this was identical to the positive general trait where your unit keeps +1 initiative for the remainder of the map, then I would value it more. But as it stands...meh)

Leadership

Fierce Fighter

River Assault

Distraction

Combat Luck - (This one's value is directly proportional to what level you stick the randomness slider at. At the default, it has marginal value.)

Exterminator


F Tier - React in disgust if awarded. Curse its absolute worthlessness. Should be struck from the game.

First Aid - (For it to be truly helpful, it needs to be changed to something like +3 or +5 strength points per turn. As it is now, worthless.)

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm Crippling Blow - (Love this one more than most. Like Butcher, Tank Killer, Flag Killer, but applies more broadly to all of those types of units. Combine it with Rapid Fire and you have a powerful overrun Panzer going berserk!

I am a big fan of Crippling Blow as well (especially in the early game when the +5 bonus is relatively large). Taken by itself it's probably mid-tier. Combine it with Tank Killer and it gets a bump. Combine CripplingBlow, TankKiller and IgnoresEntrenchment and deploy on a IIC-tank (enate Raipdfire 1.5x) in 1939 & you're somewhere between S-tier & Grondel's not4u-tier.

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:59 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm Crippling Blow - (Love this one more than most. Like Butcher, Tank Killer, Flag Killer, but applies more broadly to all of those types of units. Combine it with Rapid Fire and you have a powerful overrun Panzer going berserk!

I am a big fan of Crippling Blow as well (especially in the early game when the +5 bonus is relatively large). Taken by itself it's probably mid-tier. Combine it with Tank Killer and it gets a bump. Combine CripplingBlow, TankKiller and IgnoresEntrenchment and deploy on a IIC-tank (enate Raipdfire 1.5x) in 1939 & you're somewhere between S-tier & Grondel's not4u-tier.

Yes! I do the same early war with the Pz. Mk. IIC tank. Add Vigilant and it can take down entrenched Infantry in city hexes too. Or early '39, I have even given Albert Kerscher to it along with Ignore, Vigilant, and CB!

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:54 pm One solution for the ZeroSlots Hero might be to remove them from the mod completly and only give them to players via special heros/events during the campaigns. But i wouldnt do this.
Because, yes Zeroslots is strong, but a lot of heros affect balancing. So it wouldnt be possible to perfectly balance the game for all hero cpmbinations. For example:
A good vigilant Tank can spread more havoc among the enemies than an "extra" unit via Zero Slots (depending on the scenario). A double Attack 21cm lethal artillery is stronger than 2 21cm artillery units (1 with the lethal hero, 1 with zero slots).
Overrun is even more powerful than Zeroslots/double if played out correctly.
So if Zeroslots is too muc of an issue, get rid of them, but i prefer playing the heros the game gives me and play around the benefits/problems that rng creates for my core army.

you are right that some combinations can be very powerfull, but no single hero comes close to zero slots.
Early years it´s a free 15 str 21cm locking down any enemy artillerie piece if placed smart on a random hill.
Late war it´s most certainly a tiger I/II with str 15 for free.

And then u start adding hero combinations on top of that. I can surely balance for a player having a certain number of those, but balancing scenarios for a range of zero to unlimited is a task way beyond my capabilities.

In the later campaigns, several special heros have the zero slot trait and i consider them to be around when balancing scenarios.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:54 pm Same idea for prudent. If you give the prudent trait to player only with special heros, for example a recon only hero, the player can have fun with prudent but prudent on recon is useful but not OP (ok maybe with OS20).

Currently only the tiger-commander version of Wittmann has prudent in the mod. I´ll think about adding it to some of the recon heros.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:54 pm On the roll in players hands might be a real fun experience. The easiest way to allow players to have some fun with him would be: place him in a aux unit for one scenario in a more seperated area of the battlefield
like in 1943 AO but controlled by the player for one mission

That is a nice idea maybe i can utilize it somewhere.

sers,
Thomas

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm I find it interesting how different players value some heroes more/less than others. My appreciation for some have changed over time too, while others are no-brainers. I've cut and pasted Tassadar's list and then heavily edited it to my own preferences for how I like to play. I'm keeping comments short because I don't want to spent the time explaining my reasons why for everything. You can ask me if you want. I also deleted those that are not actual heroes that you can normally be awarded, like Double Mass Attack.

This is the main reason for this post. I don´t want to ruin anyones strategies by killing their favorite heros.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm Zero Slots
Camouflage
Lethal Attack
Vigilant
Consolidator

Those are the ones that i currently consider for a limitation in numbers.
In theory i could add a limitation for evry single hero to prevent ppl from getting like more than 5 of each. But that would make a pretty long script added to evry scenario and i don´t know if there are any line limitations in place for the LUA scripts in PC2.

I kinda like this new idea...i´ll think about that and try to find out about any limits in place.

sers,
Thomas

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm I find it interesting how different players value some heroes more/less than others. My appreciation for some have changed over time too, while others are no-brainers.

Superior Maneuver

I actually like this on the Fighter Bombers like the 110D, etc. They have extra move and it makes them fairly effective vs air units.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:54 pm
One solution for the ZeroSlots Hero might be to remove them from the mod completly and only give them to players via special heros/events during the campaigns. But i wouldnt do this.
Because, yes Zeroslots is strong, but a lot of heros affect balancing. So it wouldnt be possible to perfectly balance the game for all hero cpmbinations. For example:
A good vigilant Tank can spread more havoc among the enemies than an "extra" unit via Zero Slots (depending on the scenario). A double Attack 21cm lethal artillery is stronger than 2 21cm artillery units (1 with the lethal hero, 1 with zero slots).

I dont not agree. 2 units are most of the time just better than 1. An artillery units is more than an attacking units, it is also some kind of defense for your army and one units cant be everywhere. And double attack always means that you might run out ammo.
I like the solution to combine zero slot only with events or heroes. That is the only way to balance the game, talking about core slots. >1943 3-4 zero slot heroes might change your core slots by 25-50%, that is just insane.

Overrun is even more powerful than Zeroslots/double if played out correctly.

Never You already get overrun for free on your tanks, why do you need more units with that? Sure, a reacon or anti tank unit with overrun is nice, I recently used overrun ond jagdtiger. But it runs out of ammo quickly.
Overrun is another hero you might abuse easily, but nothing you really need to balance imo.

Same idea for prudent. If you give the prudent trait to player only with special heros, for example a recon only hero, the player can have fun with prudent but prudent on recon is useful but not OP (ok maybe with OS20).

Prudent was a nightware when a played SCW and there was one on an enemy fighter. Just unkillable.
Maybe the hero should work in a different way. It should not be affected by overstrength, so the effect always start only when you are below a strength of 10.

PaxusZero wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:54 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:01 pm I find it interesting how different players value some heroes more/less than others. My appreciation for some have changed over time too, while others are no-brainers.

Superior Maneuver

I actually like this on the Fighter Bombers like the 110D, etc. They have extra move and it makes them fairly effective vs air units.

True, and that is the only thing I use it for. But that is very marginal usefulness if there is only really one specific unit that it can be applied to with any meaningful effect. I guess on a recon vehicle too, but still...

Much better for those fighter-bombers is First Strike or No Retaliation. Or if its purpose is purely ground attack, then even Readiness to protect against any fighters.

@Defiant

Well 2 Units with only 1 hero are way weaker than 1 unit of the same type but with double attack. Yes defence use is a thing, but i dont field units just for defense, and normally i can protect all my units without the need to rely on a "free" unit.

as mentioned:
imagine you got 2 21cm guns and 1 is for free due to zero slots
imagine you got 1 lethal hero fpr your artillery

if you are not fighting on a real big map 1 21cm gun with that lethal hero and double attack is way stronger than 2 21cm with lethal and 1 with zeroslots, even if you OS the free one to max.

an overrun infantry with earned teamroller trait like pioneers can take out a complete enemy defence nest without any losses. a free 21cm gun or 15cm gun wouldnt be able to to this.

1 exception for "free" tanks thxc to zero slots, due to the steamroller trait, a free tank is really nice. but unless you are fighting on a big map many battles you dont need so many tanks. thanks to steamroll 3-4 tanks are normalle enough to do the job per round if you prepare your victims properly.

and putting zero slots on other units than artillery means you have to protect it. If you want to avoid prestige drain you need at least a 15cm gun for most of your units and anti air for all of them.

i dont say that ZeroSlots is a bad hero, but if you let me choose 1 hero out of a pool with:
Overrun, LethalAttacks, Camouflage, DoubleAttack, Vigilant and Zeroslots, i would never ever pick ZeroSlots, because i consider all the other heros in that list as more useful.
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But that is my playstyle and my approach to the game. I can accept if ppl prefer ZS, but im pretty sure there are other heros than zeroslots that make your life easier than it should be considering balance.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm Much better for those fighter-bombers is First Strike or No Retaliation. Or if its purpose is purely ground attack, then even Readiness to protect against any fighters.

I do the same thing. I prefer No Retaliation & First Strike heroes for air units (even fighters). The logic being if they take no damage they can go out turn after turn, again and again, without pausing to repair. I might be inclined to place them on a potent tank but hesitate because I can often arrange for a wounded tank to, move, attack multiple times with overrun, and then repair back up to full strength at the end of the turn (I find this especially true if I've achieved air superiority ). Air units have no such luxury so taking no damage is all the more impactful.

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:13 pm if you are not fighting on a real big map 1 21cm gun with that lethal hero and double attack is way stronger than 2 21cm with lethal and 1 with zeroslots, even if you OS the free one to max.

You compare one more "lethal" shot to a shot from another unit without lethal?
I would never do this trade, like I said one more units means one more chance to set up some defense and you have way more ammunition. If you fire twice you might easily run out of that.
And most of the time i dont want lethal on my artillery, they already do plenty damage with 5 stars and awards.

an overrun infantry with earned teamroller trait like pioneers can take out a complete enemy defence nest without any losses. a free 21cm gun or 15cm gun wouldnt be able to to this.

How? A 15 strength unit can overrun 15 strength units. >1942 the AI often has overstrength and I am always playing DvG, means my infantry cant overun anything beside minefields and damaged units.
And infantry got only 4 ammunition, quite risky if you dont have enough follow up.
And normally you got only 3 heores slots. I always use one super hero + one for defense and one more offense.

1 exception for "free" tanks thxc to zero slots, due to the steamroller trait, a free tank is really nice. but unless you are fighting on a big map many battles you dont need so many tanks. thanks to steamroll 3-4 tanks are normalle enough to do the job per round if you prepare your victims properly.

3-4 tanks? I need more than 8 when its getting hard. There are maps when you have to split your army in 1943/1944, dont know how you do that with just 3-4 tanks.

i dont say that ZeroSlots is a bad hero, but if you let me choose 1 hero out of a pool with:
Overrun, LethalAttacks, Camouflage, DoubleAttack, Vigilant and Zeroslots, i would never ever pick ZeroSlots, because i consider all the other heros in that list as more useful.
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So you are basically saying you prefer one of those heroes instead of having like +10-15% core slots?
Zero slot means another free unit, that means a unit that can collect experience and awards. If you lose a artillery in 1943 that can be painful, its good to have one in reserve! And more units mean more slots for heroes. >1942 you will run out of slots, that means you have to recycle heroes.

Looks like we just have a different playstyle most of the time. And of course there are situations when some hero combinations are far better that additional free units, but If could chose a free hero for a whole campaign it would always be zero slots

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:31 pm I do the same thing. I prefer No Retaliation & First Strike heroes for air units (even fighters).

Of course, but the question is if you got other units who need these heroes more. Even in the lategame you should not have more than 2-3 heroes of that kind. If you ask me infantry relies stronger on the heroes, because if you damage your inf in your own turn you might lose them easily in the ai turn. Fighters or Bombers are most of the time safe, since the AI ignores them often or you can easily protect them.