Slitherine

I thought Keils were like meat tanks now we have "medieval panzers", I think we're past due time for an upgrade to our javelinmen with actual "Javelins".

I think on the whole this game is pretty well balanced but the war wagons need a serious re-think. Either should cost way more or (the better solution I think) have their melee capability drastically reduced to force players to fortify them more often.

I don't think they are over powered but early to say, maybe some players will use them in the upcoming TDC and we will see how they work out.

Whether shooting them or meleeing them you need to invest far more points than your opponent does to beat them. You can't really ignore them either and focus on other sections of their force because of their ability to charge and how bizarrely good they are in melee.

Ludicrous for 49 points.

oscarius wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:33 am Whether shooting them or meleeing them you need to invest far more points than your opponent does to beat them. You can't really ignore them either and focus on other sections of their force because of their ability to charge and how bizarrely good they are in melee.

Ludicrous for 49 points.

I used them a fair amount in the beta, and consider them surprisingly well balanced. Play some matches against good players, or field them in a tournament. I really don't think they're op at all. They do hard counter certain units, but that's not unusual.

Well won both my Hussite War games in round two of the summer tournament quite handily and stand by my original points even more strongly. In both cases I maxed out my selection of war wagons (both as Hussites and Taborites) and won by a wide margin with my foes more mixed-arms approach failing as his men-at-arms and heavy foot basically ended up irrelevant (as did my own mandatory men-at-arms who spent the match chasing down artillery that had left their fortifications and then trying to find other non-wagon units to fight).

To re-iterate:

- This unit has solid win odds against crossbowmen, halberdiers, spearmen and even men at arms. The only infantry that can go toe-to-toe with them is dismounted men-at-arms or pikes (which both cost far, far more than the wagons)
- This unit cannot be flanked. This is freaking huge.
- This unit can shoot
- This unit possesses innate cover so will win a shooting match against most units in its price bracket
- If this unit fortifies nothing short of a Swiss keil is going to be able to crack it
- This unit can transform into a good medium foot unit AND move, shoot or attack in the same turn

And this unit costs only 49 points. To beat it either at range or melee you will need to spend much more than that. Again I think that A) the devs generally do a pretty good job with point balancing (though you have a few stinkers like the scythed chariots) and B) this isn't Starcraft I'm fine with some lists being stronger or weaker than others but I really think the wagons need some tinkering as they're insanely tough and versatile for their price.