Slitherine

Have put this in the sticky bug thread, but 2 things:

1. I'm not getting replays anymore in multiplayer. Havent started a new game started with the patch so maybe it is just old games running under the new patch? Unsure - but worth posting.
2. Counter battery heavy artillery fire now happens even when the artillery is hidden from sight. This makes counter battery, especially on a hill, ridiculously powerful and means recon is virtually pointless. Hiding artillery out of range, or getting the recon units with range 3 eyes to hunt out enemy formations is pointless if heavy artillery can blind fire at everything in range.

Thanks

Catacol wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:28 pm 2. Counter battery heavy artillery fire now happens even when the artillery is hidden from sight. This makes counter battery, especially on a hill, ridiculously powerful and means recon is virtually pointless. Hiding artillery out of range, or getting the recon units with range 3 eyes to hunt out enemy formations is pointless if heavy artillery can blind fire at everything in range.

Interesting, I also noticed that once in the new campaign, but could not remember if it worked like that in the past or not. Guess something that got introduced accidentally. Maybe it's related to the prediction feature for the opposing units that somehow got in the way of how units "see" each other during combat?

Tassadar wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:14 pm

Catacol wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:28 pm 2. Counter battery heavy artillery fire now happens even when the artillery is hidden from sight. This makes counter battery, especially on a hill, ridiculously powerful and means recon is virtually pointless. Hiding artillery out of range, or getting the recon units with range 3 eyes to hunt out enemy formations is pointless if heavy artillery can blind fire at everything in range.

Interesting, I also noticed that once in the new campaign, but could not remember if it worked like that in the past or not. Guess something that got introduced accidentally. Maybe it's related to the prediction feature for the opposing units that somehow got in the way of how units "see" each other during combat?

It certainly didn't work that way before the patch. Recon to spot artillery was very important....

Catacol wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:36 pm It certainly didn't work that way before the patch. Recon to spot artillery was very important....

I agree. This should be changed with the next update because counter battery without eyes is too OP.

I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Also keep in mind that some heavier artillery pieces come with it standard, like the way all tanks come with the overrun ability. The Russian 203mm and German 21cm guns are good examples, and they tend to have a 4 range to boot.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:22 am I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Honestly, I can't confirm whether this was changed with the .20 update because I'm not sure how to convert back to a prior game version to test this. But in terms of counter battery during WWII, it was not this advanced. It was a combination of visual/auditory observers (recon units) to identify the direction and estimated range where the arty was coming from. Arty counter battering units that haven't been spotted seems a little too powerful IMHO. Again... just to clarify, I'm not sure if this changed with the most recent update.

R2G2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:41 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:22 am I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Honestly, I can't confirm whether this was changed with the .20 update because I'm not sure how to convert back to a prior game version to test this. But in terms of counter battery during WWII, it was not this advanced. It was a combination of visual/auditory observers (recon units) to identify the direction and estimated range where the arty was coming from. Arty counter battering units that haven't been spotted seems a little too powerful IMHO. Again... just to clarify, I'm not sure if this changed with the most recent update.

If you play on Steam, you right click on the title in your library and go to properties. Somewhere in there you should be able to roll it back to a prior version.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:45 am If you play on Steam, you right click on the title in your library and go to properties. Somewhere in there you should be able to roll it back to a prior version.

Could you please provide more details? I'm still not seeing how to revert back... maybe a user issue

R2G2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:53 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:45 am If you play on Steam, you right click on the title in your library and go to properties. Somewhere in there you should be able to roll it back to a prior version.

Could you please provide more details? I'm still not seeing how to revert back... maybe a user issue

When you're in Steam, click on "library" so it lists all of your games to the left.
Then, right click on Panzer Corps 2.
Select "Properties"
That'll open a window. I just checked; click on "Betas"
There you will find a pull down menu where you can even chose "legacy," which is the original 1.01 version. More recent updates are available too, like 1.01.14. Then Steam will immediately update/install/roll back your game to that version. You repeat but choose "none" to restore it to the most up-to-date version again.

Hope that helps!

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:10 am When you're in Steam, click on "library" so it lists all of your games to the left.
Then, right click on Panzer Corps 2.
Select "Properties"
That'll open a window. I just checked; click on "Betas"
There you will find a pull down menu where you can even chose "legacy," which is the original 1.01 version. More recent updates are available too, like 1.01.14. Then Steam will immediately update/install/roll back your game to that version. You repeat but choose "none" to restore it to the most up-to-date version again.

Hope that helps!

It did help, but the game keeps crashing whenever I try to launch a .14 map to test...

R2G2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:42 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:10 am When you're in Steam, click on "library" so it lists all of your games to the left.
Then, right click on Panzer Corps 2.
Select "Properties"
That'll open a window. I just checked; click on "Betas"
There you will find a pull down menu where you can even chose "legacy," which is the original 1.01 version. More recent updates are available too, like 1.01.14. Then Steam will immediately update/install/roll back your game to that version. You repeat but choose "none" to restore it to the most up-to-date version again.

Hope that helps!

It did help, but the game keeps crashing whenever I try to launch a .14 map to test...

Are you trying to play a AO41 map? If so, that might be why. Otherwise, try it on an older campaign if testing is your purpose.

I participated in the beta and there were some crash issues that even affected a few maps in the older DLCs. It could be that too. Those were of course fixed with the release version of AO41.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:59 am
Are you trying to play a AO41 map? If so, that might be why. Otherwise, try it on an older campaign if testing is your purpose.

Unfortunately, no. It was a custom made map and it still crashed on version 14 (even with the Editor hotfix). It's probably going to take a Dev or someone with perfect memory to confirm if counter battery could fire on non-spotted units in the prior versions.

KaiP wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:42 pm Why not yet - You're just afraid that modders are better than you - which they actually already are. Just not in this limited forum.... Give the engine free for modding and let the modding community free ways of creativity. I'll keep buying your bad DLCs - I swear.

Here at Slitherine, we are blessed with developers who actually take the time to address the fans and work hard to give them the features they want to see. Naturally, they have very limited time and can't do everything.

Frankly, the way you have been addressing Rudankort has left a lot to be desired and has plunged into unacceptable with this comment.

Speak to people as people would wish to be spoken to. Consider this your first warning.

This guy reminds me of someone who was banned from this forum...

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:22 am I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Also keep in mind that some heavier artillery pieces come with it standard, like the way all tanks come with the overrun ability. The Russian 203mm and German 21cm guns are good examples, and they tend to have a 4 range to boot.

I'm not talking about a hero - I'm talking about a regular old heavy artillery unit now able to counter battery fire at anything in range whether it is visible or not.

R2G2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:59 am
Are you trying to play a AO41 map? If so, that might be why. Otherwise, try it on an older campaign if testing is your purpose.

Unfortunately, no. It was a custom made map and it still crashed on version 14 (even with the Editor hotfix). It's probably going to take a Dev or someone with perfect memory to confirm if counter battery could fire on non-spotted units in the prior versions.

Can I jump in here about crashing? I only play 2 player and build all my scenarios historically for my opponent and I to play. I have been trying this morning to work on a scenario I built last month but now needs adjusting to make it well balanced. I can load the scenario into the editor ok, but as soon as I make adjustments and save I cannot load it back into the editor again.

I've just run some more tests and tried to build, save and reload test scenarios. None will reload.

It looks to me that the patch has somehow broken the editor. Can anyone else reload any scenario once it has been saved?

Catacol wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:52 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:22 am I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Also keep in mind that some heavier artillery pieces come with it standard, like the way all tanks come with the overrun ability. The Russian 203mm and German 21cm guns are good examples, and they tend to have a 4 range to boot.

I'm not talking about a hero - I'm talking about a regular old heavy artillery unit now able to counter battery fire at anything in range whether it is visible or not.

The hero is identical to the regular effect. All it does it give a skill to a unit, which some units already have automatically.

As for whether the impact in the game has changed, I'm pretty sure that artillery with the counter-battery trait has always fired back, regardless of whether it could see the unit or not. I guess it's a "the fire from the salvo has given away the position" sort of effect. The only difference is that when you already saw the artillery, you would see the arrow from the unit and its estimated impact on the battle, while when you didn't see it, the effect entered without your prior knowledge, similarly to running into an ambush.

The effect doesn't seem wrong to me. It is counter-battery fire after all. Historically speaking, if you already knew where the artillery was beforehand, there wouldn't have been a reason for you to wait until the artillery actually fired, you would have taken it out with your own artillery right away. After all, him firing at you causes damage which you could have prevented by firing at him before he could. When used as a counter, you reacted to the enemy giving away his position by firing.

I guess you could make a case for counter-battery fire being more effective if you had knowledge of the enemy's position. Maybe that's something that could be brought up in the suggestions-topic.

Catacol wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:56 am It looks to me that the patch has somehow broken the editor. Can anyone else reload any scenario once it has been saved?

Yes, the Editor is broken in 1.1.20. This happened because of a last minute change which I had to add at a very short notice. When I realized what happened, I posted a hotfix here:
viewtopic.php?f=597&t=104801

If with this hotfix you still have issues, please let me know, I'll look at it asap.

Catacol wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:28 pm 1. I'm not getting replays anymore in multiplayer. Havent started a new game started with the patch so maybe it is just old games running under the new patch? Unsure - but worth posting.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that this happens because of some subtle rule change which we might not even notice (like the one below), but which makes the recorded history of orders in the old games invalid. If you experience this in any new games, then this will require investigation.

Catacol wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:28 pm 2. Counter battery heavy artillery fire now happens even when the artillery is hidden from sight. This makes counter battery, especially on a hill, ridiculously powerful and means recon is virtually pointless. Hiding artillery out of range, or getting the recon units with range 3 eyes to hunt out enemy formations is pointless if heavy artillery can blind fire at everything in range.

This change was not intended, and was introduced as part of combat code rework related to showing predictions for enemy units. While some people might prefer the "new" version of how counter battery fire works, I think that it will be better to restore the status quo which existed ever since the initial release and which most people got used to by now. This will be done in the upcoming patch.

George_Parr wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:17 am

Catacol wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:52 am

adiekmann wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:22 am I don't know what you guys are talking about: Hidden artillery with a counter battery fire hero always fired. It is a rare hero that I seldom have been awarded, but I have noticed it before. Not a bug to the best of my knowledge.

Also keep in mind that some heavier artillery pieces come with it standard, like the way all tanks come with the overrun ability. The Russian 203mm and German 21cm guns are good examples, and they tend to have a 4 range to boot.

I'm not talking about a hero - I'm talking about a regular old heavy artillery unit now able to counter battery fire at anything in range whether it is visible or not.

The hero is identical to the regular effect. All it does it give a skill to a unit, which some units already have automatically.

As for whether the impact in the game has changed, I'm pretty sure that artillery with the counter-battery trait has always fired back, regardless of whether it could see the unit or not. I guess it's a "the fire from the salvo has given away the position" sort of effect. The only difference is that when you already saw the artillery, you would see the arrow from the unit and its estimated impact on the battle, while when you didn't see it, the effect entered without your prior knowledge, similarly to running into an ambush.

The effect doesn't seem wrong to me. It is counter-battery fire after all. Historically speaking, if you already knew where the artillery was beforehand, there wouldn't have been a reason for you to wait until the artillery actually fired, you would have taken it out with your own artillery right away. After all, him firing at you causes damage which you could have prevented by firing at him before he could. When used as a counter, you reacted to the enemy giving away his position by firing.

I guess you could make a case for counter-battery fire being more effective if you had knowledge of the enemy's position. Maybe that's something that could be brought up in the suggestions-topic.

I can confirm that counter battery has not previously fired back at invisible targets. As someone who only plays 2 player this is a constant consideration. Heavy artillery comes with 4 ammo (at least from memory the Germans 210 does...) and so a single heavy gun can fire 4 times in counter. In a 2 player game this is a killer for any 105 or 150mm looking to soften up a dug in infantry unit - so the requirement in the past was to ensure there was recon in the front line that could get visibility to 105 or 150mm 3 hexes away so that the counter fire could come in. Without that recon medium artillery was able to fire unmolested by counter. Without question this was the case before because all serious multiplayer players will have worked out just how important artillery is in set piece sections of the line - and it has now changed. The defender has a much bigger advantage than before. Maybe this is intended? If so it would be good to know....and I think it might warrant increasing the prestige cost of heavy guns? In my own modded units file I've more than doubled their cost because they are game changers.

There may be some realism to the idea that enemy artillery reveals itself the moment it fires, thereby opening up counter options - but bear in mind the turn based reality of the game. A single heavy gun can fire separately 4 times as a counter to incoming enemy. In REAL life the 4 guns firing would fire simultaneously - and so if counter battery was outnumbered 4:1 then it would be far less effective. The turn based nature of the game means that a 4:1 numerical advantage is potentially nullified by the single heavy gun (though obviously players can consider air attack or direct heavy on heavy artillery duel to try and get ahead of it) - and I would argue that this therefore makes counter battery against any gun in range whether spotted or not too powerful.

One answer would perhaps be to make blind counter battery fire half as effective. I dont know if the engine could accommodate that?