Slitherine

I wonder what will be the new "Super troop" in FOG after the release of this companion Book


David

robertthebruce wrote:I wonder what will be the new "Super troop" in FOG after the release of this companion Book

Light chariot with bows, no doubt. Will kick in the teeth of any ghilman-type (armoured/bow/sword) cavalry out there. NKE here I come!

fredrik wrote:

robertthebruce wrote:I wonder what will be the new "Super troop" in FOG after the release of this companion Book

Light chariot with bows, no doubt. Will kick in the teeth of any ghilman-type (armoured/bow/sword) cavalry out there. NKE here I come!

That isn't quite right, as file vs. file the ghilman are superior, significantly so (50% more dice shooting and a PoA in melee IIRC). The ghilman problem is that they pay 38AP a file and the chariots pay 18 or so a file. The Ghilman are not over twice as good and so the Chariots can face off pretty effectively, with a big AP/numbers advantage somewhere.

One serious issue for the chariot armies is that I expect they will have little to no LH, which might put them at a skirmishing disadvantage, although that probably matters less against the Ghilman and more against other things. Against, Ghilman LH you can throw masses of LF backed up by a BG or two of chariots and probably be ok.

I am very much looking forward to the chariot armies, I think they will be quite interesting, it is a fun period, but for open tournament effectiveness the devil is going to be in teh details, what we don't know in detail enough is the composition of the foot, prescence or abscence of LH, etc.

I has playing some biblical armies, Assyrians, Hittites, Myceneans and Syro Cananittes. I think that Ligh Chariot are very interesting but they have some problems in larges melees because they haven´t any melee POA. The most of them are superiors and they can balance the combats by quality. I think they are better than no lancers cavalry, but you must avoid the enemy lancers and Knights, or disrupt them shooting at least before the contact.

Heavy chariots are pseudo-knights but not pseudo-expensives .


David

Sorry I haven't found any Ghilam or Knight in my Swifter than Eagle Companion
playing in period and books can solve many problems, the biblicals and all Armies before 500BC , there will be the first appearence of biblical Armies at the French Tournament of "THE NERVIENS " the first week end of May , we will see how they will work in the classical period , we will try to put some reports of our games ;

Regards

thefrenchjester "FOG on Tour and very Proud in his 4 equid battle car "

ethan wrote:

fredrik wrote:

robertthebruce wrote:I wonder what will be the new "Super troop" in FOG after the release of this companion Book

Light chariot with bows, no doubt. Will kick in the teeth of any ghilman-type (armoured/bow/sword) cavalry out there. NKE here I come!

That isn't quite right, as file vs. file the ghilman are superior, significantly so (50% more dice shooting and a PoA in melee IIRC). The ghilman problem is that they pay 38AP a file and the chariots pay 18 or so a file. The Ghilman are not over twice as good and so the Chariots can face off pretty effectively, with a big AP/numbers advantage somewhere.

Well I think I'll need to go ahead and disagree with you there. The LCh will be equal at impact with the Ghilman and down a POA in melee, however LCh will fight with two dice per base in the melee and are likely to be superior as well. I have played this matchup with LCh/LightSpear and Cavalry/Armoured/Swordsmen (both superior - ancient british vs romans) and it's not a good matchup for the cavalry.

Sorry I haven't found any Ghilam or Knight in my Swifter than Eagle Companion
playing in period and books can solve many problems,

, One point for you . Yes I prefer play by periods too, I think FOG runs better playing historical machts. But many people thinks that there is some unbeatable troops or armies, I think they haven´t played enough.

In Spain there is a lot of people who thinks that Bowmen and Biblical Armies are unplayable, because they don´t have good armour and melee POAs. And the truth is that I never lose a game with my assyrians against Clasical or Medieval Armies .


David

Hi All,
got my copy today from waterstone's free delivery and only £9.74p

fredrik wrote:

ethan wrote:

fredrik wrote: Light chariot with bows, no doubt. Will kick in the teeth of any ghilman-type (armoured/bow/sword) cavalry out there. NKE here I come!

That isn't quite right, as file vs. file the ghilman are superior, significantly so (50% more dice shooting and a PoA in melee IIRC). The ghilman problem is that they pay 38AP a file and the chariots pay 18 or so a file. The Ghilman are not over twice as good and so the Chariots can face off pretty effectively, with a big AP/numbers advantage somewhere.

Well I think I'll need to go ahead and disagree with you there. The LCh will be equal at impact with the Ghilman and down a POA in melee, however LCh will fight with two dice per base in the melee and are likely to be superior as well. I have played this matchup with LCh/LightSpear and Cavalry/Armoured/Swordsmen (both superior - ancient british vs romans) and it's not a good matchup for the cavalry.

I played a guesswork mittani vs a cav/lh army. I used 6x4 superior LCh, with some average bow units and javelin/shield units in the rear.

LH was nothing, I just shot them up. equal numbers of shooters on both sides, but superior vs. average saw them wilting first, despite thier advanatge in numbers

Their 3 units of superior bow/sword cav was a different matter. Once their LH proved ineffectual, they brought these out in a battle line. At least then I could chase the LH on the wings without fear of their cavalry. but I couldnt outshoot these and charging them was out of the question, so whilst I was clearing one of the wings, I was forced to evade in the centre under heavy fire, loosing quite a few elements shot dead. In the end I was able to free a wing unit to tackle their centre from beind, but it was a close call.

The feel of the chariots is that they take up a lot of space. they need to be in small units of 4 to be manouverable, but the wide frontage of such units leaves them vulnerable to concentrated shooting. Against a similar frontage of LH, this isnt so much a problem because the superiorty really helps. But against superior cavalry shooters, they get more shooters and divide your shooting between them, whereas you unit takes the lot. (assuming two units of 4 armoured cav, teo deep - facing off against one unit of 4 LCh). Granted this costs him a lot more but that matters little unless you can exploit your points advantage elsewhere.

The other thing is that with the mittani, I felt like I when I wanted to reach for a club, all I had were fly swatters. heavy chariots would at least give you some punch. I suppose the thing is you must manouver into a flank or rear charge, which takes time and finesse.

I have a feeling that manouverng in and out of column by turning 90 degrees could be a real handy skill to master for chariot lords, although I didnt put that to the test. As it was my first try, I just lined up with immense frontage across the table and charged/evaded up and down.

Lastly it is vital to have your crappy foot in rear support of your chariots. Not directly behind for the moral support, but in position to threaten pursuers lest your chariots be charged off the table. For this task, I think massed bows are better than the javelinmen. Either way, your chariots are going to have to do the fighting if it comes down to melee, but at least if you have bows in support, you can concentrate a lot of firepower before it comes to fisticuffs, hopefully getting you a disrupted enemy beforehand.

stefoid wrote:
I played a guesswork mittani vs a cav/lh army. I used 6x4 superior LCh, with some average bow units and javelin/shield units in the rear.

LH was nothing, I just shot them up. equal numbers of shooters on both sides, but superior vs. average saw them wilting first, despite thier advanatge in numbers

...

The other thing is that with the mittani, I felt like I when I wanted to reach for a club, all I had were fly swatters. heavy chariots would at least give you some punch. I suppose the thing is you must manouver into a flank or rear charge, which takes time and finesse.

I have a feeling that manouverng in and out of column by turning 90 degrees could be a real handy skill to master for chariot lords, although I didnt put that to the test. As it was my first try, I just lined up with immense frontage across the table and charged/evaded up and down.

Lastly it is vital to have your crappy foot in rear support of your chariots. Not directly behind for the moral support, but in position to threaten pursuers lest your chariots be charged off the table. For this task, I think massed bows are better than the javelinmen. Either way, your chariots are going to have to do the fighting if it comes down to melee, but at least if you have bows in support, you can concentrate a lot of firepower before it comes to fisticuffs, hopefully getting you a disrupted enemy beforehand.

steve,

no HCh in mitanni. you'll want a hittite or syro-canaanite ally for that.

and your "crappy foot" are 1/2 MF drilled prot average LS/Sw 1/2 MF prot average Bow. not so bad, but not so great.

OldenTired wrote:
steve,

no HCh in mitanni. you'll want a hittite or syro-canaanite ally for that.

and your "crappy foot" are 1/2 MF drilled prot average LS/Sw 1/2 MF prot average Bow. not so bad, but not so great.

I have only seen the neo assyrian list that was posted smewhere, that has the foot you mention. I figured it would be peculiar to assyrian types, since they were into drilling their foot and these double armed units.

I figured the mitanni would just have seperate undrilled units of bow and/or javelinmen.

The neo-assyrian list looks quite good in terms of ability to mix and match LCh/HCh, and the double armed drilled foot are handy because they can shoot or charge - extremely flexible.

But I do like the Mitanni for 'purity'. Just hordes and hordes of Lch as far as the eye can see...

stefoid wrote:But I do like the Mitanni for 'purity'. Just hordes and hordes of Lch as far as the eye can see...

16 compulsary MF and 6 compulsary LF then 8-44 LCh

Got my STE and took a real mitanni army for a spin against some bosphron greeks. I won comphrensively in the end, mostly due to some impact dice letting my chariots and foot hang around against stronger opponents long enough for sheer numbers at the contest to prevail. Almost every significant fight involved him with a POA on me, but me with 1/3rd more dice, and often a quality advantage (superior vs average)

the terrain was almost perfect - agricultural. opponent chose to put down a lot of open fields at intervals across the centre of the table on my side, on the theory that it would disrupt the chariot operation. In pratice, it merely allowed a safer area for my medium infantry units to perch in support of the chariots, which operated en masse in the gaps. chariots forward to skirmish, medium foot recessed, but close enough to move forward to add firepower or take advantage of a shaken enemy.

the thing with this and similar armies is you dont have any killer units, but neither do you have any weak units, and abslutely everything shoots. mostly your opponents army will be more lumpy in quality, and wont have your frontage. So you can present your opponent with a wall-o-mediocre, then push those areas where he is forced to face you with weak/vulnerable units, or simply envelop if he doesnt face you at all. In your opponents stronger areas, he will feel the need to forge ahead to smash your measly resistance, and you need to use your chariots skirmishing ability to draw him out of formation and onto your suport.

dont let yourself get paralyzed by a wall of skirmishers confrotning your chariots. chase them off as quickly as posible. if this means you charge into the occasional wall of solid infantry or lancers on occasion, then wear it. superior units dont break easy, and if you loose the initial charge, you can break off against solid foot. If you have to run into some lancers, most likely you will loose, but routing back to your suport with one of his best units in tow is not the worst thing in the world. if you avoid melee at all costs, you will allow your opponent to push you off the table. be prepared to lose slowly with your mediocre units in some areas, whilst winning quickly against his weak units in others.

summary - go wide, wide, wide across the table, and the key is effective cooperation between chariots and their rear foot support.

stefoid wrote:....the thing with this and similar armies is you dont have any killer units, but neither do you have any weak units, and abslutely everything shoots. mostly your opponents army will be more lumpy in quality, and wont have your frontage. So you can present your opponent with a wall-o-mediocre, then push those areas where he is forced to face you with weak/vulnerable units, or simply envelop if he doesnt face you at all. ......

Looks like we have a new army type to add to the standards (wall of steel, pin and punch, shootie, swarm)

wall of mediocrity

expendablecinc wrote:

stefoid wrote:....the thing with this and similar armies is you dont have any killer units, but neither do you have any weak units, and abslutely everything shoots. mostly your opponents army will be more lumpy in quality, and wont have your frontage. So you can present your opponent with a wall-o-mediocre, then push those areas where he is forced to face you with weak/vulnerable units, or simply envelop if he doesnt face you at all. ......

Looks like we have a new army type to add to the standards (wall of steel, pin and punch, shootie, swarm)

wall of mediocrity

you say it like its a bad thing.

fredrik wrote:

robertthebruce wrote:I wonder what will be the new "Super troop" in FOG after the release of this companion Book

Light chariot with bows, no doubt. Will kick in the teeth of any ghilman-type (armoured/bow/sword) cavalry out there. NKE here I come!

Prepare to be dissapointed. I have been running NKE since Beta times. The Lch are fun but the foot is rubbish. The drilled stuff is too expensive for it's vulnerability, MF archers even being outshot by Lf archers, his 4 dice were at +1 PAO, my 6 at evens....
The MF Close fighters hold for a while but eventually lose a CT and go down against anything 1/2 decent. And loosing the Chariot Runners means you are often out skirmished!!
Sadly my NKE are destined to go back in the box until another rule set treats them more kindly.

davem wrote:Prepare to be dissapointed. I have been running NKE since Beta times. The Lch are fun but the foot is rubbish. The drilled stuff is too expensive for it's vulnerability, MF archers even being outshot by Lf archers, his 4 dice were at +1 PAO, my 6 at evens....
The MF Close fighters hold for a while but eventually lose a CT and go down against anything 1/2 decent. And loosing the Chariot Runners means you are often out skirmished!!

Drilled troops are generally expensive unless you are able to gain benefit from the drilled status. I have hear a lot of people complaining that drilled cataphracts are too expensive but then when you look at the way they are being used a big block of cataphracts is being shtrown into the enemy line, something that undrilled would do just as well. When all of your troops are drilled it can be difficult to extract advantage from being drilled but if you can find ways to use it then it helps a lot.

LF should not outshoot MF, even unprotected MF. It is a close run thing but with 8 MF vs 8 LF the MF should get 3 hits per volley (6 dice on 4+) and the LF should get 2 2/3 hits (4 dice on 3+). OK, it's close but in a straight shooting match there is a light advantage for the MF.

As for chariot runners, one of the main reasons they are not represented as independent BGs is that historically chariot runners opperated in close cooperation with the chariots they were runners for, not as remote detatched groups of light foot which is exactly what they would be used as if they were seperate BGs.

NKE in FoG is a very different beast to NKE in DBM, if I were you I would make sure to play a few historical matchups before consigning them to the back of the cupboard.

I did. Played Mittani, got trashed. The Lf shooting up my MF was the real kicker.

davem wrote:I did. Played Mittani, got trashed. The Lf shooting up my MF was the real kicker.

The LF shouldn't reliably shoot up your MF but it is possible.

Mittani is a good army in StE, it is nice and flexible in terms of drilled or undrilled.

To me the good selling points of the NKE are the (for the period) quality infantry that you can have such as the guardsmen, Nubians and Sherden.

davem wrote:I did. Played Mittani, got trashed. The Lf shooting up my MF was the real kicker.

The mixed formations are very flexible - protected, light spear, swordsmen in the front rank and protected bow swords in the back. Not fantastic, but not sucky either, and they fail to suck in a wide variety of situations.