Slitherine

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:12 pm**

uzbek2012 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:03 am War and toilets: how the street latrines of Paris helped defeat the Nazis) it remains only to do this

However, there was also a heroic page in the history of Collnes vespasiennes. It dates back to the years of the German occupation.

In 1940-44, the restriction of freedom suddenly made secret meetings in public toilets very popular. They were considered relatively safe there. According to the old residents, during the occupation, " the streets were empty, but the latrines were full." Yes, German soldiers also often went to the urinals in Paris to satisfy their needs, but the former shelters for the marginalized also served as an important meeting place for the resistance. Here, for example, they exchanged information about the movement of enemy troops.
Straight headquarters)
https://www.ridus.ru/news/314279

ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:16 am And "Despite their merits in the fight against the Nazis, in the postwar era the old street latrines were doomed to remain only in the memory of Parisians. Since 1960, they were gradually dismantled under the dubious pretext of infrequent use."

The resistance fighters also had (fortunately) many other meeting places and were active all over France, but only in Paris were such facilities available.

So, I would say thanks for the information, but I believe that it will not appear in this campaign.

To me, the good news is that one might guess from reading you that you think the campaign is already very complete from a historical point of view.

Heh. I did not realize that was what I was looking at! It could give additional meaning to the pst! in the first photo.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:17 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:34 am This picture would be nice to illustrate an event a little before 24BlackForest (a campaign event?)... because the French 1st Army had to cross the Rhine. If an important phase was the crossing in force at Speyer & Germersheim, it was necessary to build additional bridges here and there...

The big picture on the front page. The sign reads: "Bridge built by the engineers of the 1st French Army"
https://www.aphg.fr/IMG/pdf/160418-x_dp16_1_.pdf

Will be used as suggested, thanks.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:01 pm**

Scenario Strasbourg (the 1st):

You said our troops would leave from Baccarat... fine. So, there is

a little something immersive that deserves to be added "by the way" in the introduction and that will also set the tone for what is to come, or what is expected to be somehow achieved again (from the player as well, as he gets to command this excellent "tool" of war, the French 2e DB

).

I announce:

"the Baccarat minuet"!

I quote: "The capture of Baccarat was the very example of the tactical mastery of the division and its leader. Six sub-groups acted in perfect synchronization to surprise the enemy, so much so that this maneuver was nicknamed the Baccarat minuet. Before reaching the city, the 2nd armored division continued its mission as flank-guard of the 3rd American army, the battle was a model of its kind from which the staffs quickly drew lessons."

(Source: p 350 of this document, well 353/603, sorry it's in French: https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/tel-02139128/document )

So, for our scenario, the starting position has been won by the 2e DB already... and not in any way, yet well, but as a masterpiece!

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:18 pm**

Strasbourg: (both scenarios)

Hey, because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Lo ... e_(France)

Well, we said no more Partisans as they're too weak from now on. That's fine. "Although the men of the brigade were highly motivated, many were not military veterans and the unit was equipped with a mixture of Allied and German weapons and material."

Perhaps we could consider

representing this with Brigade by, let's see, maybe two units: one "old" French regular infantry '42 and one German regular infantry '41 or '42... they may spawn once Saverne has been conquered and once maybe our units have travelled the third of the distance between Saverne and Strasbourg. To reinforce Leclerc's guys.

We said partisans helped to recon paths in the Vosges, but as well that they've promised a military help when the Allies would have reached the plains. Now we can "upgrade" these guys from the basic Partisans units, say few nice and immersive words and let them join the fray! (And we may need manpower against all these fortresses that awaits us... )

And for the 2nd scenario, well, they could help to defend Strasbourg itself...

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:31 pm**

The Baccarat minuet, non! Superfluous. The Alsace-Lorraine Independent Brigade helping to defend Strasbourg, oui!

No partisan units in Strasbourg. The player is going to need to rely heavily on air support. No strategic bombers but two ground attack fighters (P38L Lightning, P61B Black Widow) and five tactical bombers (two French A-20C Havocs, A26B Invader, B26G Mitchell, B26F Marauder). Three dogfighters (two French P47D Thunderbolts, P51D Mustang) round out the Allied fleet of 10 aerial units.

Correction: The Marauder is technically a strategic bomber.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:03 am**

Here is an oddity that I have noticed on two maps. How can the 36th VgD be in two places at once?

: map5lg.jpg (270.19 KiB) Viewed 1894 times

Closeup:

: Image0496.jpg (172.24 KiB) Viewed 1894 times

I will resolve it in favor of the placement in the northwest. It's a bit crowded anyway where they are now, in the southeast between Dettwiller and Saverne. There is a reason why I am interested in this division and the 17th SS PgD even though they are not on the map ... for now. A bit of artistic license is being indulged to make Operation Nordwind more exciting.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:03 am**

Hmm, I'm betting on an appearance from the northwest during the scenario...

to put more pressure on the Saverne Gap.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:05 am**

Now that the dreaded PzKw. VI B Königstiger will have made its first appearance during the capture of Strasbourg, so one might reasonably expect to find

some of these units during the defense of Strasbourg as well.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:06 am**

I have the impression that the next update of the campaign will contain, for once, two scenarios in one go: those with Strasbourg!

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:31 am**

24BlackForest: I checked, by compiling different sources, it won't be a problem, we will have access to the OoB of the French for the part of the battle that interests us here!

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:05 am**

One thing to understand is that there are two distinct parts: the military battles because, clearly, the Germans (and in particular the SS) must be defeated, and the other somehow battles as well, those that concern the spheres of influence and the preparations for AFTER.

In this regard, one can recall, with the campaign in Lebanon and Syria, the way in which the British tried to prevent de Gaulle from reinforcing his military means too much (by facilitating the return of tens of thousands of French soldiers with their equipment back to Vichy

), and this while the fighting was still raging throughout the world, while trying, at the same time, to replace France with regard to the "mandates" vis-à-vis these two countries.

At the (very) high level, the preoccupation was not only to win the war, but also to place one's pawns well in anticipation of the post-war period...

If need be, let's read this again:

ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:31 am I've just read again an old post of mine, where I find still some useful […] info:

[…]
ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:03 pm And some more historic events to add again more depth, more flavor:

[… And another event:]

Title: “Perfidy!”

Text:
“To prepare the text of the armistice, during the meeting held on 19 June at the home of Sir Miles Lampson, and attended by Wavell and Catroux, General de Gaulle drafted the text of the conditions that seemed acceptable to the Free French and suitable for those opposite.

The next day, unpleasantly surprised: the text retained by the British government and already sent to Dentz (the Vichy's Commander in Chief of the Army of the Levant) was in no way similar to the one the Allies had agreed to!

1. It was not any longer at all question of the Free French; it was just as if it was being proposed to Dentz to entrust Syria to the British!

2. The soldiers and civil servants of the Levant were going to be repatriated en masse and with authority; but de Gaulle needs to keep as many as possible with him!

So there, de Gaulle set out on a more or less diplomatic crusade to have his rights respected and to protect those of France!”
--------------------------------------------------------------
A campaign event just after the last scenario about the Syrian campaign and the next scenario on another theater of action:

Title: “Bitter victory!”

Text:
“Our general has been intractable, thus there was a lot of arguing going on.

It was not until July that the agreements of 19 June were respected by the British, somewhat "interpreting" the text they had signed with those of Vichy.

Thanks to de Gaulle's tenacity, and besides at the peril of the alliance with the British, the flag of the Free France now flies over Damascus and Beirut.

Moreover, de Gaulle can finally send his officers to retrieve some equipments and rally some troops among the defeated Vichy's forces.

So, 127 French officers and 6'000 French non-commissioned officers and soldiers join us, plus the Syrian and Lebanese elements which are reconstituted, thus adding yet 290 officers and 14'000 men. That's how the Free France has finally gained about 20'000 fighters after this fratricidal struggle.

But thanks to the delaying imposed by our British ally, it's almost too late: only a fifth of the remnant French Vichy's forces has been able to join our ranks, because the others are being evacuated by Vichy's ships. Indeed already 25'000 officers, non-commissioned officers and soldiers of the French army and air force are slipping away on the horizon, together with one of our assets...”

(Numbers taken from the Memories of General de Gaulle... )
Two considerations:
[…]
2. From texts of the two last elements, another campaign event may appear after the Operation Exporter scenario as many men are about to join and fight under the Free French flag! So, maybe with a slightly more "neutral" title... but with these historical elements:

=> The British tried to be entrusted Syria and Lebanon, who were, as it has been mentionned earlier, FRENCH Mandates.

=> The British planed to repatriated en masse and with authority the soldiers of the (Vichy French) Armée du Levant... but de Gaulle needs to keep as many as possible with him!

=> The latter because even if the British have accepted the solid help of the Free French, they don't really want either that they become too strong, so that the British may easily keep the lead of overall military operations...

=> Finally, even if most of the French soldiers have already been evacuated (thanks to the British support!), Général de Gaulle managed that about 127 French officers and 6'000 French non-commissioned officers and soldiers join the ranks of the Free French fighters, plus the Syrian and Lebanese elements which are reconstituted, thus adding yet 290 officers and 14'000 men. That's how the Free France has finally gained about 20'000 fighters after this fratricidal struggle.

==> All this is worth another nice campaign event, isn't it?

*******

What does this have to do with us?

Well, of course, always same “high-level” principles, so same things later again. Once the final victory was (almost) assured, some important people preferred to avoid providing "too much" heavy equipment to the French...

Otherwise, the French could have equipped more large units (we'll come back to that!) and, from then on, played an even greater role on the military level.

At that time, it would have been even harder to ignore the opinions of the French leaders and even harder to do without France on the day of the final victory, when the maps and the future of the world would be redrawn.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:19 am**

Therefore, fewer resources will be allocated to the French. This meant more tasks for the Americans and the British - and it did not matter if they suffered more casualties as a result! At this stage, these were “higher level” calculations, in view of the AFTER...

According to the same principle, in order to cross the Rhine, the bulk of the work had to be done by the Americans (first through the rich Ruhr area - well, rich, that was mostly before the massive bombing, but anyway). As for the British (supported by some of the Canadians!), they were forced to settle mainly for the northernmost part. As for the French, in the great operation called "Eclipse", the 1st army was confined to a strictly defensive role and, moreover, the Americans recovered the bridge crews, which meant depriving the French divisions of their main means of crossing (the Rhine, that is).

*******
Watch out:

Do not confuse friendship between peoples and the interests deemed superior by certain high-ranking guys.

De Gaulle's "Mémoires de guerre", T3, pp176-178:

"Yesterday, the failure in front of Colmar had shaken the morale of the 1st Army. Today, the satisfaction of having saved Strasbourg revived everyone's confidence. General de Lattre was the first to feel optimistic, and thus to take the offensive. In the middle of January, he decided to resume his efforts against the German pocket of Alsace [Colmar].

At the same time, the Allied commanders were planning to begin decisive operations across the Rhine. But, before crossing the river, it was necessary to have reached it. But this was not done anywhere, except in the French sector towards Strasbourg and Saint-Louis. [...] In order for de Lattre to be able to conquer his objective, perhaps also to erase the effect of the recent crisis in relations [due to the desire to abandon the whole of Alsace, including Strasbourg!], the Commander-in-Chief decided to reinforce the 1st Army. This one would see the arrival of the Leclerc Division, returned from the banks of the Saar, several American divisions and a notable complement of artillery. Ahh, American divisions subordinated to a French army, that is not very common!

However, the enemy was so relentless that it would take the 1st Army three weeks of incessant fighting to complete its task. [...] On the 9th, our troops completed the conquest of the Hardt forest and seized Chalempé. As a result, except in the region of Haguenau and Wissembourg, there were no Germans left in Alsace except the 22,000 prisoners who had just been captured there.

On February 11, I went to Mulhouse, then I went to Colmar. How can I describe the joy and emotion in which we were all immersed, rulers, leaders, soldiers, population? But on that day, another element of enthusiasm was added to the patriotic impulse: the fraternity of arms between the French and the Americans. One could feel that this fraternity was brought to the highest point by the success we had achieved together in the framework of our army, and precisely on that terrain. Under the motionless silence of the regiments, I could feel the friendship between the two peoples vibrating. In the center of the Rapp square, flooded with tricolor flags and starred banners, in front of the front of our troops and those of our allies, proudly lined up side by side, under the cheers of the Alsatian crowd [...]. De Gaulle decorated several generals, French and American]."

Isn't friendship between two peoples a beautiful thing?

T3, pp178-179:
"Thus, for a time, the obstacles that had hindered our strategic relations with the Americans were smoothed out. But others were to be expected. In the immediate future, a capital and thorny question would arise, that of French participation in the campaign in Germany. I obviously wanted our army to enter enemy territory, to have its sector of operations there, to conquer cities, fields and trophies, and to receive, with its allies, the surrender of the defeated. There was certainly a condition dictated by the concern for our prestige. But it was also the only way for us to be sure of being part of the surrender, the occupation and the administration of the Reich. As soon as we had in our hands an area of German soil, what would happen to Germany [in addition, however, to France's neighbouring country] could not be decided without us. Otherwise, our right to victory would remain at the discretion of others. In short, I wanted us to cross the Rhine and carry the French front as far as possible into the southern German states.

[...] Knowing that the main Allied effort would be aimed at the Ruhr and would be carried out downstream from Koblenz, I thought that the Commander-in-Chief would not care much about launching the 1st Army, in isolation, into the Black Forest. It seemed likely to me that he would leave it on the banks of the Rhine, which, for the staffs, might seem justified. But, if we were to make do with it, there would be every chance that the French army would only play a passive role in the final battle. My policy not being able to subscribe to this strategy, my resolutions were taken. It was necessary that our troops also cross the Rhine. They would do so within the framework of the Allies, if that was possible. If it was not, they would do it on our behalf. In any case, they would have to seize a French zone of occupation on the right bank.

We soon learned that the plans of the high command justified our apprehensions. Under the title of "Eclipse", which was truly significant for our situation, the plan drawn up by Eisenhower for the operations of the crossing and those of the advance into Germany assigned to the 1st French Army a strictly defensive mission. [...] But the crossing of the Rhine by the French 1st Army in its sector was not planned in any case. [...]

On March 4, I received General de Lattre in Paris and explained to him the reasons of national order for which it was necessary that his army be carried beyond the Rhine. He himself only asked for that. [...]"

How this was granted by the High Command was quite a story.

(A point worth noting, I quote T3 p181 "Moreover, General Devers, a good ally and a good comrade, sympathized with General de Lattre's desires. ")

The main thing is to know that the French were finally able to cross the Rhine WITHIN the inter-allied framework... and then exploit the door thus opened to the Danube, and to Hitler's eagle's nest, Berchtesgaden and his Berghof!

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:20 am**

But for this, since the (French) national interest was involved, here too it did not matter if they suffered more casualties as a result!

Here too?

Yes, remember:

=> This was true for the Americans and the British leaving the French aside to cross the Rhine, who would therefore have more fighting of their own to do and therefore more losses in their ranks.

=> It was true as well for the French who wanted to cross the Rhine, to continue to have their own battles to fight, but who were going to have more losses in their own ranks.

Ah, the national interest (among others)!

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:22 am**

Yet about converting resistance fighters into regular soldiers and how to equip them (especially with heavy armament)…

Extracts translated from T3, pp37-42:

“A certain demagogy demanded then noisily that we mobilize the classes of age to bear arms. This mass mobilization, renewed from the revolutionary period, would have provided, certainly, considerable numbers, in spite of the fact that 2,5 million men were in the hands of the enemy as prisoners of war, deported from the resistance or required to work, and that 300,000 others had been killed or seriously injured since the beginning of the conflict. But this was no longer the time when numbers counted more than anything else. [...]

To organize for the battle the ebullient and valiant youth who had led the clandestine struggle and to join them to the troops who had come from Africa, that is what seemed to me to be feasible from the military point of view and necessary from the national point of view. In the state of extreme material deprivation in which we found ourselves, this would be all that was possible for the autumn and winter [1944]. If it happened that the war was going to last longer, we would decide at the appropriate time. In practice, I intended to incorporate into the 1st army as many Maquis as it could absorb and to constitute, with the remainder, large new units.

As soon as we were able to know with enough precision the real situation of the paramilitary elements [...] We decided first of all, by decree of September 23, that the men remaining under arms would have to contract a commitment in good and due form for the duration of the war. Thus, the situation of the maquisards was legally regulated. [...] In the end, the [land] army kept, for its own account, more than 300,000 soldiers who came spontaneously from the interior forces.

Of these, according to my decision, de Lattre would immediately take charge of a hundred thousand. The others would constitute 7 new divisions. In addition to these large units, the Minister of War would recreate regiments of all arms, in order to ensure training in the interior regions and to make up for losses on the front. [...] As for the military schools, they were reopened without delay.

This program was carried out. But the problem was less to create troops than to arm and equip them. The rifles of all models, the rare machine guns and mortars, the few touching cars, which the maquisards held and which they had used in skirmishes and ambushes, were only derisory if it was a question of taking part in pitched battles. By regrouping these makeshift means, by bringing from Africa the few availabilities that were still there in terms of French armament, by collecting and repairing the material taken in France from the enemy and even that which, in the past, we had been able to collect in Tunisia and Italy, we would manage to ensure a basic supply to the training units. But this was not enough for them to compete with the Wehrmacht forces. They needed heavy weaponry. However, there was no longer a single factory in France capable of manufacturing them. Installations and tools of our specialized factories had been dismantled and taken away by the Germans, the remaining workshops having kept only what was necessary for accessory work carried out on behalf of the enemy. While waiting for us to get the production going again, which would take many months, we were forced to rely on the goodwill of the United States.

This goodwill was thin. It must be said that our allies were experiencing undeniable difficulties in transporting from America the enormous tonnage of material that fed the battle. They did not care to add to it, unexpectedly, lots to be delivered to the French. All the more so since it would have been to the benefit of units drawn from our forces in the interior. Now, for the Anglo-Saxons, these units did not fail to seem shocking to the staffs and worrying to the politicians. No doubt, during the liberation battles, some means had been passed on to the "troops of the revolt". But, in Washington and London, there was no question now of providing them with heavy armaments that would have to be brought from America by overloading the convoys. And who could ensure that one day these unusual forces would not use the power they had acquired for subversive purposes? Above all, by giving General de Gaulle's government enough to equip 8 or 10 new divisions, it would be necessary to foresee that by the end of the winter the French army would have doubled in size, that it would play an increased, perhaps decisive, role in the battle, and that France would then have to be admitted to the armistice settlement, which Roosevelt wanted to avoid. For these reasons, our approaches to the American and British governments did not produce any results. From the day of the landing to the day of the German surrender, our allies did not provide us with enough to equip a single large unit. As early as October, General Marshall, visiting us in Paris, had left us no illusions on this point.

Would the Allies at least agree to provide the 100,000 men of reinforcements that our 1st Army was trying to absorb in its divisions, services and reserves? No more. Referring to the supply plans that their offices had drawn up, they always refused to take this increase into account. As far as food and clothing were concerned, our Quartermaster's Office provided the First Army with the necessary supplements. But for the rest, we had to resort to expedients.

As the winter in the Vosges was risky for the health of the Blacks, we sent to the Midi the 20,000 soldiers from Central and West Africa who were serving in the 1st Free French Division and in the 9th Colonial Division. They were replaced by the same number of maquisards who were equipped with the same equipment. Several North African regiments, particularly tested by two years of fighting, returned to their original garrisons, while corps drawn from the interior forces inherited their weapons and their rank in the order of battle. De Lattre, skilfully playing with the equipment allocated in advance to his army, distributed its contents among new elements. Finally, the ingenuity deployed at all levels, either to draw from the American fleets a little new equipment to compensate for machines declared out of order, to restore them to working order and then to align them with the replacements, or to adopt, without concern for their civilian status, all the allied armoured vehicles, guns and vehicles that were within reach of our own, provided some resources. Alas! in our misery, all the means were good for us to straighten our force which had, throughout the centuries, often known the superfluous, even practiced waste, and was now so terribly deprived. All in all, the 1st Army was, in spite of everything, provided with what was necessary for its reinforced strength.”

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:32 am**

Why all this, one might ask?

Besides the intrinsic interest of the thing, there are certainly some elements that can enrich the content of some texts, of some events, improving at the same time both the depth and the immersion of the campaign as a whole.

And, it may be required as well to understand some of what’s happened in French Indochina…

but that's for another time!

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:11 pm**

It's been a while since there was a cartoon suggestion, hasn't it? Here is one of them:

This one related to the Battle of the Bulge, but, well, it would work just as well for Operation Nordwind (or just before), right?

https://worldwartwobattleofthebulge.wee ... rtoon.html

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:17 pm**

bru888 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:17 am Very good. [...] . . . but a stamp can be worth a thousand words!

[...] So. I think we have a scenario in the making here! Two? I don't know. My initial inclination is to have one that shows the action from Chad to Tripoli. We'll see. (Rubs hands together in glee. )

Excellent, but if I'm not mistaken, there is still this awesome stamp

to be added in the 08Fezzan scenario.

It is available in three different colors, to choose from:
https://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=htt ... egUIARCyAQ
https://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=htt ... B0AAAAAEAM
https://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=htt ... g4egQIARAn

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:39 pm**

Still looking for some potential embellishments.

The poor Marianne (symbol of France) forced to sign an armistice at the beginning...

to then, despite the fall of Paris, she managed to play good cards

https://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=htt ... gDegQIARBB
https://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=htt ... B0AAAAAEAM

(I don't know if these two will find a tiny place somewhere within the campaign, but these are pretty cool I think...)

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:59 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:11 pm It's been a while since there was a cartoon suggestion, hasn't it? Here is one of them:

This one related to the Battle of the Bulge, but, well, it would work just as well for Operation Nordwind (or just before), right?

https://worldwartwobattleofthebulge.wee ... rtoon.html

Look for several new and revised campaign messages in the next update.

: Screenshot 1.jpg (210.27 KiB) Viewed 1843 times

: Screenshot 2.jpg (242.39 KiB) Viewed 1843 times

: Screenshot 3.jpg (180.2 KiB) Viewed 1843 times

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:15 pm**

Will wee see german jet and rocket-powered aircraft in the Battle of Strasbourg(1944) as in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0PyujRcm-0&t=64s

Slitherine

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