Slitherine

bru888 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:06 pm 24BlackForest

Hooray, thank you very much!

Splendid. And it will be a reminder, a wink to the two scenarios with Strasbourg, because there will be Strasbourg and the bridgehead of Kehl (which could have been seized also in Operation Nordwind scenario) on our rear... and, among others, Sigmaringen too... Great!

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:14 pm Hooray, thank you very much!

My pleasure. What you said made sense.

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:20 pm Splendid. And it will be a reminder, a wink to the two scenarios with Strasbourg, because there will be Strasbourg and the bridgehead of Kehl (which could have been seized also in Operation Nordwind scenario) on our rear... and, among others, Sigmaringen too... Great!

Yes, I drew that box so as to include Sigmaringen and Konstanz as "reach goals" and, of course, there will be a popup-message about the Vichy government-in-exile in Sigmaringen. I wanted to get the full bend of the Rhine; I think it's beautiful the way that it flows west from Bodensee, then north. And, there is the Danube arising from the Black Forest!. So, the rectangle happened to catch Strasbourg and Kehl, which is fine. I will reproduce them on a much smaller scale.

When the time comes (not now), please render assistance on the orders of battle. I want to include the two German corps: XVIII SS Corps and LXIV Army Corps with three divisions each. (I will probably steal the 716th VgD and drag it down south a bit for the third division in LXIV Corps.) I can probably find the OoB for the Germans (I already found the 716th) but I would like your advice on the 1st French Army. Is their First Corps enough or do I need the Second Corps as well?* What units are in these corps?

Note: Please resist the temptation of expanding the battlefield north and east. I don't intend to feature U.S. troops at all or any other German division except these six in the two corps.


*Eh, we probably will need the Second Corps. The entire corps, stretching the truth a bit. Reason: This is yet another large map and the French are expected to divide and surround the two enemy corps.

bru888 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:25 pm *Eh, we probably will need the Second Corps. The entire corps, stretching the truth a bit. Reason: This is yet another large map and the French are expected to divide and surround the two enemy corps.

The good news is, the Second Corps helped to take Stuttgart in mid-April, so it's plausible that they would be moving south to help deal with those two German corps in late April / early May.

The bad news is, once again I will be dealing with those damned Goumiers. Surer than stuff (a euphemism for a crude saying):

The Allied ground advance into Germany reached Stuttgart in April 1945. Although the attack on the city was to be conducted by the US Seventh Army's 100th Infantry Division, French leader Charles de Gaulle found this to be unacceptable, as he felt the capture of the region by Free French forces would increase French influence in post-war decisions. Independently, he directed General de Lattre to order the French 5th Armored Division, 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division and 3rd Algerian Infantry Division to begin their drive to Stuttgart on 18 April 1945. Two days later, the French forces coordinated with the US Seventh Army and VI Corps heavy artillery, who began a barrage the city. The French 5th Armored Division then captured Stuttgart on 21 April 1945, encountering little resistance. The city fared poorly under their direction; French troops forcefully quartered their troops in what housing remained in the city, rapes were frequent (there were at least 1389 recorded incidents of rape of civilians by French soldiers), and the city's surviving populace were poorly rationed. The circumstances of what later became known as "The Stuttgart Crisis" provoked political repercussions that reached even the White House. President Harry S. Truman was unable to get De Gaulle to withdraw troops from Stuttgart until after the final boundaries of the zones of occupation were established. The French army remained in the city until they finally relented to American demands on 8 July 1945 and withdrew. Stuttgart then became capital of Württemberg-Baden, one of the three areas of Allied occupation in Baden-Württemberg, from 1945 until 1952.

There are other mentions on the internet, such as "Mass Rape of German Women After the Fall of Germany in 1945 - When Stuttgart was first occupied by the French immediately after the war in August 1945 [sic], mostly French colonial soldiers from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia under French command rampaged through the bombed out city and shelters and committed an orgy of rape. The local police verified 1,198 cases of rape. The ages of the victims ranged from 14 to 74." And "From Nov. 1944 through April 1946 my father served with the 100th. Infantry Division. In one of the more than 300 letters he wrote home during his service in WWII he refers to the shameful rape of more than 1800 women in Stuttgart by Algerian troops. With all the carnage and rape done by the Soviets in Berlin it seem that this episode got overlooked."

So not just Goumiers? But certainly Goumiers were in the pack. The idea makes me sick. These animals were on our side.

Here is the resolution: I will use some of that paragraph above, but I will not get into the rapes. I have dealt with the topic before and once was enough.

Anyway, yes, I think the entire 1st French Army is needed and will be used, for gaming reasons and not necessarily absolute historical accuracy.

bru888 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:51 pm... I will not get into the rapes.

The hell I won't. For the sake of the women at least, this latest incident deserves to be told and remembered, not swept under the rug. If there is one aspect about this campaign that I regret, it's this. Someone kindly remind me that most North African soldiers, if not Moroccan Goumiers, were actually decent men.

Before Sigmarinen, 2nd Army Corps crosses the Rhine (Spire & Germersheim):

Of course, I will render assistance on the orders of battle.


-> The 716th VgD further south?
Yes, either at Tübinger or even further south... that will make 2 blocks with 3 divisions each, like that.

-> Involve the whole 2nd corps?
We'll see. The problem is that if we have too many units at our disposal, why bother encircling the Germans? With too many resources, it could be simply a push forward... and at that moment, beware of the traffic jams, on these roads in these forests...

1A) No, if we want to roughly respect the idea of encircling first the German corps, then the first 3 sets of objectives (the different axes of progression) will be Tübinger, Rottwell (and Tuttlingen) and Freiburg (and Mülheim).

1B) If, on the other hand, one favors the option of "cutting the enemy lines in half", then the assault should focus on Rottwell (and Tuttlingen)... thus encircling "only" one German corps during the scenario, before cleaning both the NE area and this "motti"...

(EDIT: And if German divisions don't move too much, AI setup wise, that is, except of course the later SS counteroffensive, then these manoeuvre can't fail... in principle!)

2) Then, to concentrate possibly on closing the pockets, but in any case on reaching the distant objectives (Sigmaringen and Constance).

3) In any case, we will also have to focus on eliminating most (if not all) of the German units on the map.

Involving the whole 2nd French corps might not be necessary... but we can of course add some units of this corps.

By the way, as it is, the Goumier troops are OUTSIDE the green frame. We can certainly manage without them in this scenario.

You saw, it's sure that there will be the troops of the shock battalion! (Paratroopers, or SAS, or perhaps SBS units...)

About OoB, well, for example, the famous 1re DFL composed of veterans, heroes of the beginning... will NOT be part of the game in Germany (to the great displeasure of all these brave guys hardened by the battles), because they will be needed much further south... for the battle of Authion! (Excellent choice, talking about Authion, by the way: 2 German divisions with 2 Italian fascist divisions that decided to continue fightings against several French divisions, it looks just excellent!)

Well, as you said, we'll go into more details later about this OoB. But, anyway, of course you can count on my help, no problem.

Still these goumiers indulging in this kind of exactions!? Damned!
(Well, there were plenty of other examples with the Germans, especially the SS, in Russia... then with the Russians when they arrived in Germany, etc. But we totally agree, that's of course not at all a reason!)

At least this campaign should end on a positive note, that the last events and texts are positive...

Let me be clear: It's not about skipping these events (with Goumiers), but about adding some positive (before and) after.

terminator wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:09 am Before Sigmarinen, 2nd Army Corps crosses the Rhine (Spire & Germersheim): [...]

Yes, that's right, of course. But I think this time we're starting to get enough scenarios for this campaign. So unless there's something really special, I mean...

I would say this crossing of the River will probably be simply introduced in the texts... But thanks for the idea.

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:22 am Still these goumiers indulging in this kind of exactions!? Damned!
(Well, there were plenty of other examples with the Germans, especially the SS, in Russia... then with the Russians when they arrived in Germany, etc. But we totally agree, that's of course not at all a reason!)

At least this campaign should end on a positive note, that the last events and texts are positive...

Let me be clear: It's not about skipping these events (with Goumiers), but about adding some positive (before and) after.

Yes, we will. The story of Free France ranks with that of Britain in 1940-1941 facing the German monster alone; a story of heroism.

Strasbourg:

Here are some more photos related to Strasbourg:

For his liberation: http://archives.ecpad.fr/prise-de-stras ... n-blindee/

And for his defense: http://archives.ecpad.fr/camp-du-struth ... -kilstett/

Perhaps some of them may be useful?

Some of the new pictures, that is. Indeed, of course some of them can already have been found with the first link I've sent: https://www.kuriocity.fr/30-photos-de-l ... iale-1944/

In this last link (so the old one), there is a photo of a captured (German) 88 gun... Well, perhaps one of these German guns could be captured during the advance towards Strasbourg (named "Captured German gun" or something) and kept together with the units of the 2e DB for the defense of Strasbourg?

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:43 pm Strasbourg:

Here are some more photos related to Strasbourg:

For his liberation: http://archives.ecpad.fr/prise-de-stras ... n-blindee/

And for his defense: http://archives.ecpad.fr/camp-du-struth ... -kilstett/

Perhaps some of them may be useful?

Some of the new pictures, that is. Indeed, of course some of them can already have been found with the first link I've sent: https://www.kuriocity.fr/30-photos-de-l ... iale-1944/

In this last link (so the old one), there is a photo of a captured (German) 88 gun... Well, perhaps one of these German guns could be captured during the advance towards Strasbourg (named "Captured German gun" or something) and kept together with the units of the 2e DB for the defense of Strasbourg?

Good sources. Likely I will use some of these.

Funny story, perhaps.

A few months ago, while I was reading the Atkinson liberation trilogy and a few other sources, I was taking notes on a small pad. As I filled each page, I paper-clipped them together.

And ultimately lost the whole stack. I thought I had inadvertently recycled it with some old newspapers and magazines.

Until I found it yesterday, stuck in the pages of an old World Almanac that I consult infrequently. Since the internet came along, that's not much, I'm afraid.

The notes went back to before I was designing La Combattante, for that was the note on top of the stack (I was discarding my written notes as I finished each scenario).

Looking through them now, I had various reactions:
"Well of course, that was obvious."
"What a stupid idea that was!"
"Heh, talk about micro-detailing."
"Why did I take this note?"
"I'm glad I didn't forget this!"

Generally, all the good stuff that was in these notes, I remembered and is in the campaign so far. I did find three goodies:
• Notes on Strasbourg and Operation Nordwind that I can still use.
• Notes on the Yalta conference and how de Gaulle and France were snubbed.
• Notes on a small project that I am thinking of doing as soon as I am finished with this campaign. If I survive its development, that is.

Tell me, please, are these people reading good news or bad? I can detect that some notices seem to be signed by "Général Leclerc" but I am put off by the "Waffen" and "ARRÊTÉ" (stopped) and I am wondering whether these are notices put up by the Germans (before the city was liberated) spreading the false rumor that Leclerc had been stopped in his drive to the city.

bru888 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:23 pm Tell me, please, are these people reading good news or bad? [...]

This is pretty GOOD news.

Well, okay, the bulk of the text is unreadable even when zoomed in but:

1. This is part of a set of photos related to the taking of Strasbourg and the region... to the taking!

2. There are still some old German posters where it says "Waffen", yes... why old? The two posters of the center are glued on top. The one of the center on top, addressed to the "Inhabitants of Strasbourg" and "signed" "General LECLERC". Moreover, people look at the posters of the center and even of the right, so the new ones...
It's true that these "slackers" could have done some cleaning, but they have a good excuse I guess!

3. Besides, how could they have announced or claimed to have stopped Leclerc, when his advance was lightning and even took the Germans by surprise at the beginning... Besides, did they even know (and care) that Leclerc was on the other side of the Vosges a short time ago? And even if they did, why relay this information to the population, at the risk of awakening their patriotism? No, no, it's not that.

Now, more importantly:

4. "ARRÊTÉ": This decree should not stop you. It is in the sense of an administrative decision. It's all very well to chase the Germans away, but you still have to take everything in hand behind it...

5. There is a clear reference (bottom center poster) to Federlin Alfred... WHO is this man?
"Alfred Emile Adolphe Federlin

The interim mayor of the Liberation

Born in Strasbourg on August 6, 1891, died in Strasbourg on February 6, 1973. Acting mayor from September 1939 to 1944.

He joined the Strasbourg city council in 1929 and remained there until 1947. He belonged to the Democratic Party of Charles Frey.

After the evacuation of Strasbourg from 1939 to 1940, he returned to the city with a written delegation from Mayor Charles Frey. On November 23, 1944, he was appointed interim mayor of the liberated city. On the 27th, he handed over his powers to Charles Frey, who had returned from Périgueux."
(Source : https://archives.strasbourg.eu/chronolo ... gorie_id=5 )


In order to talk about an interim mayor (who was appointed!), that the French general Leclerc pronounces decrees and appeals to the citizens ("Inhabitants of Strasbourg", "Strasbourgeois", "General Leclerc" announces, here is your interim mayor, here is a new decree, etc.) This concerns the AFTER-liberation of the city! So the city has been liberated already and thus it can (or should) only be rather good news.

Even if we don't see people showing their enthusiasm here in an exhuberant way ( ) - they may have already largely celebrated the thing!

bru888 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:02 pm [...] I did find three goodies:
• Notes on Strasbourg and Operation Nordwind that I can still use. Very good, I can't wait to discover them.
• Notes on the Yalta conference and how de Gaulle and France were snubbed. Worth mentioning, indeed!
• Notes on a small project that I am thinking of doing as soon as I am finished with this campaign. Ah? here is what will tickle the curiosity... If I survive its development, that is. Oh but I'm sure you'll both survive it and enjoy it, my friend. ( )

bru888 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:02 pm [...]
• Notes on the Yalta conference and how de Gaulle and France were snubbed. [...]

This is particularly shameful when you think about the goals of this conference:

-> to adopt a common strategy to hasten the end of the Second World War;
-> to settle the fate of Europe after the defeat of the Third Reich;
-> to guarantee the stability of the new world order after the victory.

Did these three giants want to remove France from the chessboard? How could, for example, the fate of Europe be settled without taking France into account?

(For the record, these were the Soviet Union (Joseph Stalin), the United Kingdom (Winston Churchill) and the United States (Franklin D. Roosevelt).)

ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:41 am

bru888 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:02 pm [...] I did find three goodies:
• Notes on Strasbourg and Operation Nordwind that I can still use. Very good, I can't wait to discover them.
• Notes on the Yalta conference and how de Gaulle and France were snubbed. Worth mentioning, indeed!
• Notes on a small project that I am thinking of doing as soon as I am finished with this campaign. Ah? here is what will tickle the curiosity... If I survive its development, that is. Oh but I'm sure you'll both survive it and enjoy it, my friend. ( )

War and toilets: how the street latrines of Paris helped defeat the Nazis) it remains only to do this

However, there was also a heroic page in the history of Collnes vespasiennes. It dates back to the years of the German occupation.

In 1940-44, the restriction of freedom suddenly made secret meetings in public toilets very popular. They were considered relatively safe there. According to the old residents, during the occupation, " the streets were empty, but the latrines were full." Yes, German soldiers also often went to the urinals in Paris to satisfy their needs, but the former shelters for the marginalized also served as an important meeting place for the resistance. Here, for example, they exchanged information about the movement of enemy troops.

Straight headquarters)
https://www.ridus.ru/news/314279

And "Despite their merits in the fight against the Nazis, in the postwar era the old street latrines were doomed to remain only in the memory of Parisians. Since 1960, they were gradually dismantled under the dubious pretext of infrequent use."

The resistance fighters also had (fortunately) many other meeting places and were active all over France, but only in Paris were such facilities available.

So, I would say thanks for the information, but I believe that it will not appear in this campaign.

To me, the good news is that one might guess from reading you that you think the campaign is already very complete from a historical point of view.

This picture would be nice to illustrate an event a little before 24BlackForest (a campaign event?)... because the French 1st Army had to cross the Rhine. If an important phase was the crossing in force at Speyer & Germersheim, it was necessary to build additional bridges here and there...

The big picture on the front page. The sign reads: "Bridge built by the engineers of the 1st French Army"
https://www.aphg.fr/IMG/pdf/160418-x_dp16_1_.pdf