Slitherine

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 12:30 pm**

Several pictures here: https://www.kuriocity.fr/30-photos-de-l ... iale-1944/

Note that, the 23rd November 44, when the assault was launched... well, Leclerc, born the 22nd November 1902, was just 42 years old!

And, by the way, the Germans had fun renaming many places, streets, etc., in Strasbourg...

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 12:47 pm**

Another battlemap (with forts located - you've done a pretty good job about it... 7 of them are indeed represented): http://m.fort-frere.eu/lefort/histoire/ ... mbre-1944/

This map is excellent, because it shows the various paths possible through the Vosges, by the way!

And another confirmation: there was definitely several SS units within the garrison, as well as few Volkssturm units too.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 1:15 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 10:25 am [...] In the light of these few additions, do you really want to continue with this idea of having the very same map for these two next scenarios or rather consider making now two distinct maps altogether?

Well, now I'm no longer sure about it...

the last research I've made shows that it may indeed be perfectly fine to use the very same map... and it would be much easier anyway, if there would directly be enough room...

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 1:54 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:31 am [...] In the north, the 361st Volkgrenadier Division (VGD) and the 11th Panzer Division (PzD) will be indirectly concerned by the offensive... => But that makes potential reinforcements, plausible at least, in reserve for us during the development of this scenario!

In direct contact, there are essentially 2 German divisions:
553rd VGD (General Brühn), north of the Vezouze
708th VGD (General Krieger, replaced on November 20 by General Bleckwenn)
[...]

553rd OoB: (from here, only available directly in French https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/553e_Volk ... r_Division)

In September 1944, it consisted of 3 grenadier regiments and one rifle company:

Grenadier-Regiment 1119
Grenadier-Regiment 1120
Grenadier-Regiment 1121
Artillery-Regiment 1553
Füsilier-Kompanie 553
Divisionseinheiten 1553

*******

708th OoB:

1944: (from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/708th_Infantry_Division )

728. Grenadier-Regiment
748. Grenadier-Regiment
360. Festungs-Grenadier-Regiment (who, according to the French equivalent wiki page here https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/708e_divi ... Allemagne) , were in fact Cossacks!

Some of the famous OstLegions units?!

708. Divisions-Füsilier-Bataillon
658. Artillerie-Regiment
708. FlaK-Kompanie
708. Feldersatz-Bataillon
708. Panzerjäger-Kompanie
708. Pionier-Bataillon
708. Nachrichten-Abteilung
708. Versorgungstruppen

*******
361st OoB: (as a northern "reserve" or northern reinforcement perhaps?)

From https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/361e_divi ... Allemagne) : (this French webpage containing more info about this than its English version)

Grenadier-Regiment 951
Grenadier-Regiment 952
Grenadier-Regiment 953
Artillerie-Regiment 361 with I. Abteilung, II. Abteilung, III. Abteilung, IV. Abteilung
Pionier-Bataillon 361
Divisions-Füsilier-Bataillon 361
Feldersatz-Bataillon 361
Panzerjäger-Kompanie 361
Divisions-Nachrichten-Abteilung 361
Divisions-Nachschubtruppen 361

*******
11th Panzer Division => well, I believe that we've already seen these guys, don't we? Then their OoB should be already known...

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 7:28 pm**

Some things to look forward to:

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So far, these are the objectives:

PRIMARY OBJECTIVE

• Take the city of Strasbourg
All city buildings and outlying forts must be in Allied hands and the German garrison must be destroyed.

SECONDARY OBJECTIVES

• Silence the guns of Kehl (enabled when Allies get near the city)
There are three long-range artillery guns sited across the Rhine River in Kehl. They can easily reach all of Strasbourg and the outer ring of forts. Attacking by land is not practical as the Germans will blow the Kehl bridges as soon as the Allies approach. Take the guns out by aerial attack.

• Lay siege to the cathedral
The way to do this is to isolate the defenders in Strasbourg Cathedral by destroying or pushing all other defenders away beyond two hexes from it. (This includes City Hall which the Germans are using as their headquarters.) Once this is done, enemy troops in the cathedral will surrender. No harm must be done to the cathedral or the mission is failed. Do this properly and fulfill the Oath of Koufra!

• Capture all 7 German forts
Capture each fort by destroying its defences. Seize all forts to complete the objective.

This may change, in that the last two secondary objectives are redundant with the primary objective.

This scenario may actually be a bit difficult. The fortresses around Strasbourg and the guns in Kehl set up a killing zone in front of the city. The player is going to need to use his artillery and air power.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 7:52 pm**

Awesome!

bru888 wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:28 pm [...] This scenario may actually be a bit difficult. The fortresses around Strasbourg and the guns in Kehl set up a killing zone in front of the city. The player is going to need to use his artillery and air power.

Precisely, that's why we could involve the (historically accurate) initial "surprise effect" & the "fort captured in an enough good shape to stay useful"...

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:53 am [...] Now, here's a tiny little bunch of ideas about what could be used:

1. To somehow depict the "surprise" effect, the differents forts could be on "idle" until either the first damage is done to them or until the first Free French unit is at 3 hexes away (or less) from the golden star flag... then, a pop-up saying that defenders are rushing now to their positions and forts are about to become active...

2. One of the 4 western forts, randomly chosen at scenario start, could be captured instead of simply destroyed (same concept than the bunkers in Paris)... let's make them taste a little their own medicine as well, adding as well more variation to the scenario (another "unique" unit to handle wisely)...
[...]

... not making them active from start will allow us to move closer, to mass up troops nearby and to quickly destroy at least one or two of these forts... plus, seeing one of these forts under the Free French flag, that may be another providential help!

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 7:59 pm**

About these first obj:

Pri obj: "Take the city of Strasbourg"
"All city buildings and outlying forts must be in Allied hands and the German garrison must be destroyed." Excellent!

Sec obj:
-> "Silence the guns of Kehl" => Excellent!

-> "Lay siege to the cathedral" => To be kept like this!

Indeed, even if it may be a bit redundant. It is possible to control the whole city without having respected the cathedral, so...
-> "Capture all 7 German forts" => To be removed, too redundant and no real added value in itself.

Then, there is

all the part before Strasbourg itself

the complete capture of Saverne ('probably a first primary objective, actually!), the breaking of the two initial German defense lines...

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:09 pm**

We've US div as well... so, in principle I would say we don't really wish them near or at Strasbourg itself (for historical reasons only). Once Saverne has been fully taken and by Free French troops (that may be another primary objective, so "Free French do capture the key location of Saverne"), then there could be a new sec obj enabled... Which one?

Well, do you rember, there should be 2 German divisions defending the lines in front of the troops. But two others, the 361st VGD and the remnants of the 11th Pz Div not very far in the North...

The North, it's NOT the East where Strasbourg stands. To let the French go for Strasbourg, we may have to send the American elsewhere... so why not up North to deal with this 361st VGD (and few Panzers as well)? Deal with them, push them back, deal at least XYZ damages to them or destroy XYZ2 of their units, without losing more than XYZ3 US units, or something... with this, one could easily build up another objective (primary or secondary)?

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:17 pm**

Actually, I went the other way. "Take the city of Strasbourg" will be merely taking the primary VP flag. Time will be allotted to complete the secondary objectives, however. I like those secondary objectives and how they are working. There could be another primary objective. Ideas?

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:22 pm**

Saverne...

I've written a lot, haven't I?

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:29 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:22 pm Saverne...

I've written a lot, haven't I?

That's okay. I keep up with it, albeit somewhat after the fact. I will not reply to it all, however.

Back to the primary objective, I added two more VPs to simulate full control of the city. The buildings and forts will still be secondary objectives.

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Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:44 pm**

Indeed, it looks much better with these two additional golden star flags.

So, it's fine for Strasbourg itself now, I would say.

Already 1 pri & 3 sec obj for this scenario.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 8:53 pm**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:44 pmAlready 1 pri & 3 sec obj for this scenario.

More than that now. Here is how it is shaping up (remember, the Guns of Kehl objective will be disabled until the Allies get near the city):

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Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:09 pm**

Well, following History, and the battle phasis, it could

be built up like this:

1. When the scenario starts, this obj is enabled: "Break through the first German defensive lines" (or something similar).

Once achieved, then, the US infantry units should move North against more German units, while the French must go for their first goal: Saverne!

Which means:

2. Another primary objective, perhaps even enabled from start: "The French must capture Saverne and secure its surroundings"

3. Once the initial breakthrough (pri obj 1) has been achieved, let's make the US push North, as explained in a previous post. So, then enable another pri obj, difficult enough to make them busy until scenario end or almost... (this one not from start anyway!)

4. Once the French have taken Saverne, then the road to Strasbourg is open... so, then, and only then, enable the pri obj about Strasbourg AND the sec about the Cathedral (and only this one for now).

5. When reaching Strasbourg or its surroundings, then the two last sec obj (forts & heavy art on the other side) may be enabled...

That gives an overview, an overall structure to the scenario... with then already 4 pri obj & 3 sec obj for now.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:10 pm**

Well, ok, so 4 pri and in fact 5 sec objs now.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:11 pm**

... with the two last sec obj you've just added.

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:26 pm**

So, here I really suggest to really follow phasis and to avoid "spoiling" everything too soon.

For the briefing,

mostly mention the two defensives lines and the Saverne gap... and the goal/dream/ideal to liberate Strasbourg, and that's all! Let then things/objectives appear on due time...

Posted: **Sun May 30, 2021 9:33 pm**

Then, we've the bad weather with rain, snow (and fog).

And our French recon plane.

And our side road in the Vosges that is known thanks to both the resistants and our recon plane (this one despite bad weather, yes, it's historical as already written)... that the Germans haven't defended and that allow French tanks to come from behind the Saverne's defenses.

When this path will be discovered by/for the player, several hexes may be highlighted for him, to make it obvious, crystalclear...

Posted: **Mon May 31, 2021 3:53 am**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:53 am Now, here's a tiny little bunch of ideas about what could be used:

1. To somehow depict the "surprise" effect, the differents forts could be on "idle" until either the first damage is done to them or until the first Free French unit is at 3 hexes away (or less) from the golden star flag... then, a pop-up saying that defenders are rushing now to their positions and forts are about to become active... All forts to be manned from the beginning. See next item.

2. One of the 4 western forts, randomly chosen at scenario start, could be captured instead of simply destroyed (same concept than the bunkers in Paris)... let's make them taste a little their own medicine as well, adding as well more variation to the scenario (another "unique" unit to handle wisely)... All forts will be captured when "destroyed." This will set up an unusual (interesting? hilarious?) situation in which we could have dueling fortresses!

3. The Cathedral... THE Cathedral! Not even a single shot at it, please. One could use there the same concept than in the Keren scenario, with the obj "Lay siege to both monasteries" in Eritrea (no German one hex away, surrounding ground captured by us). When saved, back to neutral because we aren't going to "exploit" this either... The Germans may use this bunker to shoot, though, to increase the challenge. Good idea; I went back and copied the monastery module in Keren.

4. So, one concrete bunker to destroy purely and entirely (the German HQ) and another to liberate intact (the Cathedral)... Yes, exactly. The HQ must be "destroyed" (actually, replaced like the forts and cathedral) in order for the cathedral to be liberated.

5. The 2 bridges at Kehl, over the Rhine River, to be blown up as soon as we get close enough, with then another obj enabled, an obj to repair them and to "clear" the eastern part from enemies... Yes to the bridges being blown, but no to crossing the Rhine which would be premature according to history and would seem odd because in Operation Nordwind, the Germans and their artillery will be back in Kehl. There is the secondary objective to destroy the guns of Kehl by air in this scenario, however.

6. Partisans... even if these units are weak in OoB, I would suggest to add several of them under our direct own command this time (it's historical and immersive - besides, they'll certainly become somehow useful a little later - among others, there will be a lot of forts, with powerful shots... we need targets... ). Perhaps one or two (or even more?) of them on each and every of the main roads leading to Strasbourg once the 2e DB has broken the first German lines of defenses. Perhaps one of them could be named, their commander (using its codename?). Sorry; I thought this over, but I cannot see using French partisans in this one. It's like Marseilles; the city is too small, there is nothing for them to do, and they are weak and boring units to play with. I will mention them in a popup message.

Posted: **Mon May 31, 2021 4:25 am**

ColonelY wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 9:54 am We've many ingredients for a truly epic scenario, haven't we?

Yes, but you may be a little disappointed in that there is no way I could program into this scenario all of the details that you provided. The attack will generally occur along the lines of history, and it will involve the friendly and enemy units that you have identified, in generally the positions in which they were to begin the battle.

These maps from that PDF document are very helpful:

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They show the U.S. 15th Corps (2 U.S. infantry divisions, the 79th and 44th, and 1 French armoured division, the 2e DB) approaching from the southwest. They will engage the 553rd, 708th, and 716th VGDs west of the Vosges. As the Germans are pushed back, the 11th Pz and 361st VGD will make an appearance from the north. The Allies will drive to the Saverne Gap (as well as perhaps using two other passes with secondary roads) to get to the Alsace plain in the east. Then the battle for Strasbourg will begin.

But I cannot fine-tune it to the extent that you describe from that document and your other sources. Too much detail and too finely choreographed to replicate. As usual, we will adhere to history as a background but there will be some variation for the sake of gameplay. And it will be much simpler than most of what you presented. Don't be concerned; I have gleaned some good things from all of that. Just don't look for the rest and be overly disappointed.

Slitherine

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