Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #8
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:04 pm
Very promising finally i been in hiding for 6 months do to taking care of my dieing grandmother and getting married but im back and im happy to see progress cheers Devs.
I agree with your point while I would also welcome a slightly smarter AI... i.e. balancing realism with game play dynamics/experience!
Molve wrote:Molve wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:20 pm We can discuss realism all day, as long as we always remember what makes the Panzer General and Corps a success:
The fact they allow you to unrealistically build hero units that you can keep throughout a campaign.
Everything else must be subordinate to this.
Detailed supply? Better AI? Tweaked equipment files? Changes in everything from suppression to experience?
If it means you can't keep your favorite units alive in PC2 it's all for nought. No change, however realistic, welcome or interesting must be kept if it ruins this very fundamental fact of the venerable lineage of games.
If you don't agree maybe it's time to reflect on yourself. No offense, but maybe you're better off moving on to a more sophisticated game and leaving PC2 to remain true to its roots. There are lots of games which are both fun and complex. I welcome Slitherine coding such games, just as long as they don't name them "Panzer General/Corps"
Best Regards
Interesting idea, sounds almost like PzC 3 is on the horizon already!Retributarr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:31 am Then...with all of the accumulated input from the 'Posting-Audience', as well as probably even more additional 'Sophisticated-Input' to come there-after, ...that a 'New-Game-Construct', would take-off/from...the PzC2 base-legacy, so...instead of entirely leaving it, it could possibly one day perhap's...come into being?...in order to 'Satisfy' this so-called Can·tan·ker·ous 'Sophisticated-Spirited-Kabal'.
One day perhap's, a PzC3 may be become a reality!...whether it will resemble what I envision or maybe altogether something else?. However at the moment... of my previous post...I was insinuating that very concept, but all that 'is/was' is just so far wishful thinking.PeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 amInteresting idea, sounds almost like PzC 3 is on the horizon already!Retributarr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:31 am Then...with all of the accumulated input from the 'Posting-Audience', as well as probably even more additional 'Sophisticated-Input' to come there-after, ...that a 'New-Game-Construct', would take-off/from...the PzC2 base-legacy, so...instead of entirely leaving it, it could possibly one day perhap's...come into being?...in order to 'Satisfy' this so-called Can·tan·ker·ous 'Sophisticated-Spirited-Kabal'.![]()
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I'd like to point out that this didn't detract from my enjoyment of the relatively few scenarios that I used this tactic on, they were still hard, intense, and rewarding. It's one of those "hard-to-master" tactics that makes me like this game so muchPeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:43 pmHere is the screenshot from huckc's Grand Campaign West & East 39-45 (Manstein):ptje63 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:12 amI guess this comes down to AI scripting as well and a challenge for present PC2 developersPeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:21 am On the topic of the AI attacking: well, as an example... I think there is still a small problem when you are in an entrenched position (maybe with artillery in the back or maybe even surrounded by AI troops at Manstein strength) and none of the AI units that are facing you is attacking you because it is not worth it for the individual AI unit (as the losses are too high) and so you can sit and wait and win and the AI loses although the AI had x-times more units on the map... I can link a recent screenshot example if needed/interested... It would be nice if this can be changed in future...![]()
... Despite being a game with all its drawbacks, we wish to encounter better AI performance, as is requested by numerous PC gamers elsewhere. Im not into multiplayer games for practical reasons so Im only playing against AI which is sometimes predictable, but for me its a battle against AI merely, personally.
Yes, interested in the screenshot...
Have a look at the three victory objectives in the west...
(the size of the picture can be increased by opening it in a separate tab)
Here is also my discussion with him on this subject:
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=82946&start=140#p765315
Well... I think I have also noticed that the number of official statements/responses decreased in the last few weeks... at least that's my impression...
In an ideal world, I would say the solution to this is obvious.Molve wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:48 pm Even something "obvious" as making enemy artillery actually start shooting (so the entrenchment levels drop) might have unforeseen - and unwanted - side effects.
Remember you are among the top %1 players who know every trick in the book.
But the game must work for the average player.
An AI tweak that prevents you from setting up these entrenchment "safe hexes" is still worthless if it means the AI now uses artillery like a perfect human. After all, even a relatively small army is enough to suppress-kill one of your units each round if used correctly.
But this would destroy the "level up" experience that is the main draw of these Panzer games.
No AI improvement is worth it if the average player suddenly can't keep his units alive.
M
PS. This does NOT mean I am saying everything is fine as is, or that you don't have a point, or or somesuch. All I am saying is that each AI improvement must be carefully calibrated with the main goal in mind. And that main goal is not to make it impossible for ultra veteran gamers to find wonky behavior. It is to impart the illusion of reasonable AI play, while in actual reality the AI makes the machine go very very soft on the player's units.
Soft enough that the player feels he or she is in actual control over the units' destiny. Which compared to actual warfare is a fantasy. In short Panzer games are "Fantasy WWII" and should stay that way
tl;dr: if the exploit can be coded away without changing anything else, sure fix it. But I suspect it isn't generally that easy...
***Instead***Retributarr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:31 am Some improvement's in "Sophistication" will enhance PzC2, conversely...other manipulations would likely impede it.
We should therefore try to keep the Game-Audience engaged in the game with-out too much Additional Complexity or Diversion.
Maybe even the activity level as a whole has been decreasing in the PzC 2 subforum, i.e. people are suggesting less and less ideas and it seems they are also not complaining anymore… maybe these are first signs of growing disengagement and/or disillusion?PeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:30 pmWell... I think I have also noticed that the number of official statements/responses decreased in the last few weeks... at least that's my impression...
I mostly complained about the emphasis on Unreal and 3D! 3D! 3D! in their initial marketing as well as the focus on 3D in the game development itself. They've vastly improved how they communicate with fans thanks to the dev diaries, although Feb will mark a turning point towards slipping back into their old ways as the first month they haven't release one since they started them. The 3D will always be an issue, but they have at least made some improvements to the camera angle. They've also stopped showing some of the more problematic unit types that can't be told apart from an overhead view, such as infantry, to the public. Obviously that solution won't last forever, but it has helped keep the peace for the last while.PeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:11 amMaybe even the activity level as a whole has been decreasing in the PzC 2 subforum, i.e. people are suggesting less and less ideas and it seems they are also not complaining anymore… maybe these are first signs of growing disengagement and/or disillusion?PeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:30 pmWell... I think I have also noticed that the number of official statements/responses decreased in the last few weeks... at least that's my impression...
Absolutely agreed! This could even be a separate DLC and I am sure people would buy it if you look at the number of posts/views on McGuba’s current thread.NiMa wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:39 am I DO hope to see a grand campaign and a grand map similar to the Battlefield Europe MoD in Panzer Corps 2. It goes beyond saying how exciting it will be to be able to make such highly strategic decisions as to where and when to fight and to what extent, across the Europe, North Africa and Middle East.
Yeah EXACTLY! To be honest I wouldn't mind at all to pay whatever for such a separate DLC as well and like you mentioned I've seen and heard many others really want such DLC too! Hopefully the devs will take this issue seriously for PZC2PeteMitchell_2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:29 pmAbsolutely agreed! This could even be a separate DLC and I am sure people would buy it if you look at the number of posts/views on McGuba’s current thread.NiMa wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:39 am I DO hope to see a grand campaign and a grand map similar to the Battlefield Europe MoD in Panzer Corps 2. It goes beyond saying how exciting it will be to be able to make such highly strategic decisions as to where and when to fight and to what extent, across the Europe, North Africa and Middle East.