Slitherine

Cunningcairn wrote:I think that is a good rule addition Mac although it probably won't stop the tactic. If I was once again attacked by a Pyrrhic army filled to the brim with pikes and I only had MF which was the case, I would once again head for the hills. If however the Pyrrhic army had taken all the available Italian foot and hoplites I would have considered taking them on despite them still having an advantage.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. This is a campaign and supposed to be fun, not some cut throat competition where any thing goes(well for some players, I get more than my fill of that in the league style comps). The campaign presumes that there will be a battle. If you go into a battle to purposefully force a draw, then you are denying the campaign game and seeking to not lose just for the sake of not losing.

The new rule is an attempt to reflect what would probably occur in an historical context should an enemy army be intact after a battle. That would be ravaging and other destructive behavior. It will balance the scales somewhat and perhaps influence players choices on the margin, when it is in their strategic and or tactical best interests to do so. I will continue to evaluate other ways to enhance the probable "historical" responses to actions and any suggestions would be welcome.

Mac

TheGrayMouser wrote:

Cunningcairn wrote:I think that is a good rule addition Mac although it probably won't stop the tactic. If I was once again attacked by a Pyrrhic army filled to the brim with pikes and I only had MF which was the case, I would once again head for the hills. If however the Pyrrhic army had taken all the available Italian foot and hoplites I would have considered taking them on despite them still having an advantage.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. This is a campaign and supposed to be fun, not some cut throat competition where any thing goes(well for some players, I get more than my fill of that in the league style comps). The campaign presumes that there will be a battle. If you go into a battle to purposefully force a draw, then you are denying the campaign game and seeking to not lose just for the sake of not losing.

I didn't go into battle you did. I don't see it as fun being walked all over by troops you cannot beat. Do you get your fun from beating up on inferior opponents? It could have been fun if you'd taken the Italian foot and hoplites as I mentioned earlier.

Cunningcairn wrote:

TheGrayMouser wrote:

Cunningcairn wrote:I think that is a good rule addition Mac although it probably won't stop the tactic. If I was once again attacked by a Pyrrhic army filled to the brim with pikes and I only had MF which was the case, I would once again head for the hills. If however the Pyrrhic army had taken all the available Italian foot and hoplites I would have considered taking them on despite them still having an advantage.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. This is a campaign and supposed to be fun, not some cut throat competition where any thing goes(well for some players, I get more than my fill of that in the league style comps). The campaign presumes that there will be a battle. If you go into a battle to purposefully force a draw, then you are denying the campaign game and seeking to not lose just for the sake of not losing.

I didn't go into battle you did. I don't see it as fun being walked all over by troops you cannot beat. Do you get your fun from beating up on inferior opponents? It could have been fun if you'd taken the Italian foot and hoplites as I mentioned earlier.

Hmm, interesting outlook. We both have been playing these game for a long time and have crossed sword many times, I hate to this to turn into something longterm.
I sent you a PM.

( Although I cannot help but to feel insulted that you think I would have not maxed out on Italian foot when you chose HILLS.. I did.. I also had 3-4 hoplites, I have NO idea why you think I should have taken more...)

Hmm, interesting outlook. We both have been playing these game for a long time and have crossed sword many times, I hate to this to turn into something longterm.
I sent you a PM.

( Although I cannot help but to feel insulted that you think I would have not maxed out on Italian foot when you chose HILLS.. I did.. I also had 3-4 hoplites, I have NO idea why you think I should have taken more...)

Please forgive me if you think I'm angry or intended to insult you because neither are true. I just fail to see your argument. You gave me two options. One to fight a battle I had no chance of winning or two, to do my best not to lose. I chose option two, to which you protested. The issue arose when you decided to attack a nation that has designed its army to fight in hilly, rough terrain with an army that can only fight on good going, level ground. You would have been better off attacking Rome. I look forward to playing you again on a more level playing field.

Here are the new rules for determining occurrence of natural disasters and other costly events.

Natural Disasters and Other Uncontrollable Events

Twice each turn or once a year, there will be a chance of incurring a natural disaster. Using Lysimachos’ excellent and already tested system, each Major Power will be assigned an Italian city lottery, as follows:

1. Epirus – Firenze
2. Rome – Roma
3. Macedon – Milano
4. Gauls – Napoli
5. Carthage – Palermo
6. Seleucids – Genova
7. Ptolemaic – Torino
8. Antigonus – Venezia

Each lottery has five balls. The numbers on each ball will determine a result, a calamity or no harm.

1-10 - No harm
11-20 - Famine – costing 200T
21-30 - Earthquake – costing 100T
31-40 - Volcano Eruption – costing 100T
41-50 - Restless underclass – costing 100T
51-60 - Pirates or bandits disrupting trade – costing 100T
Over 60 - No harm
There could be multiple events causing harm each year. If there are 2 events of the same type, only the cost in the table above will count. Gaul has 2 famine events but only 200T will be used to reduce income.

The first draw, covering 274 B.C., from Saturday, 7 April is as follows:

1. Epirus – Firenze - 10,11,18,20,87 - Epirus is experiencing famine.
2. Rome – Roma - 19,27,30,33,90 - Rome is experiencing famine and Vesuvius has erupted!
3. Macedon – Milano - 10,23,58,63,72 - An earthquake has struck central Macedon and Pirates are causing trade problems in the Aegean ports.
4. Gauls – Napoli - 9,15,19,61,81 - Famine is impacting the Gallic homelands.
5. Carthage – Palermo - 6,25,39,52,58 - An earthquake has struck near the coast of Carthage, Jebel Akhdar has erupted followed by pirate attacks.
6. Seleucids – Genova - 20,49,50,64,68 - An earthquake has struck Media, causing restlessness in the Persian underclass.
7. Ptolemaic – Torino - 4,10,11,26,58 - Famine in Egypt, an earthquake in Bythynia and Pirates in Crete!
8. Antigonus – Venezia - 7,51,54,68,70 - Pirates in the Aegean affecting Antigonus as well.

This will be a costly year!

Man and there I was worrying about the locusts!

mceochaidh wrote:This will be a costly year!

It actually looks better than average to me, based on the stated system.

If I am not mistaken, the system will result in an average of 2.5 calamities per year for each nation (reduced somewhat by duplicates). If I am correct, isn't that a bit OTT? (Although I appreciate the results of the calamities aren't all that bad)

Oh Lord!
Eruptions and famine ...

I have to do something to appease the Gods!

Gauls have won a definitive victory over the Spaniards:
Gauls 4% loss.
Spaniards41% loss.
Ulysisgrunt

Richard,

I think you may be right. I may look to compress the ranges in which certain things occur or reduce the cost. I did survey the areas and was surprised how often earthquakes occur. Not the same for volcano eruptions. I will review before the next strike of the gods!

Mac

Artemis, the protector of nature, has heard the cries and wails of her people and appealed to her father, Zeus. With the support of Apollo, Zeus has brought solace to the lands, reducing the impact of all natural calamities inflicted in 274 BC by half. He has even brought calm to the populations, reducing the affect of their discomfort by half. He has further decreed that no more than one type of natural event will be inflicted each year. Therefore, as an example, only one famine will inflicted. If two major powers have a result that causes natural disaster, the power with the highest score from the lotto in the respective category will be inflicted. Poseidon and Hephaestus are angry. They declare Zeus has no right to meddle in their world! Hephaestus has called on Hera for support, provoking Zeus to lessen the chances of volcano. However, Zeus conceded that restless people are not his concern, so future restlessness can occur in multiple powers (only once per turn per power), albeit with lesser probability.

Natural Disasters and Other Uncontrollable Events as declared by Zeus, ruler of the Olympians.

Twice each turn or once a year, there will be a chance of incurring a natural disaster or having a restless populace. Each Major Power will be assigned an Italian city lottery, as follows:

1. Epirus – Firenze
2. Rome – Roma
3. Macedon – Milano
4. Gauls – Napoli
5. Carthage – Palermo
6. Seleucids – Genova
7. Ptolemaic – Torino
8. Antigonus – Venezia

Each lottery has five balls. The numbers on each ball will determine a result, a calamity or no harm.

1-20 - No harm
21-30 - Famine – costing 200T
31-40 - Earthquake – costing 100T
41-45 - Volcano Eruption – costing 100T
46-50 - Restless underclass – costing 100T
51-60 - Pirates or bandits disrupting trade – costing 100T
Over 60 - No harm
There could be multiple events causing harm each year. If there are 2 or more natural events of the same type, only the power with the highest number in the category will be inflicted. Restless underclass will count in each case.

Thanks again to Lysimachos for designing the original template for this system.

ianiow (Macedonia) kicked RBS (Galatia) in the gauls 19 v 46

The Galatian army is painfully limping away.

Since we now have 3 out of 4 results from 274 BC and the 4th battle should be resolved soon, lets move on to 273 BC.

"To put movement sequence as simply as possible, there will be 2 pools of players, those that chose their last move and those that did not. Those that did not choose in the last movement sequence will be in the pool that can choose in the next movement sequence."

It seem simpler to use the Italian city lotto for this as well. For 273 BC:

1. Epirus – Firenze - will respond
2. Rome – Roma - will respond
3. Macedon – Milano - will respond
4. Gauls – Napoli - will respond
5. Carthage – Palermo - will be active
6. Seleucids – Genova - will be active
7. Ptolemaic – Torino - will be active
8. Antigonus – Venezia - will be active

The order of active movers will be based on the lowest number received on a ball. The responders will be in order of the highest number received on a ball, with highest number responding to lowest number. If there is a tie, the next lowest/highest ball will be used. The lottery will be tonight and I will update tomorrow.

We will use the Lotto results for Tuesday night, 17 April to determine the next movement sequence.

Mac

Well, we will now use the Thursday 19 April draw, as Rome and Campania have played 22 turns without a result. We will be done by then.

I have realized that there is no real consequence if a weakened power is subject to ravaging. I think there should be, so have added a sentence to that section.

Economics – Minor Powers
1. Minor powers do not have a treasury. If a major power chooses to attack a major power with its minor power client or province, it is assumed that the major power is providing the funds to the minor power to mobilize and attack, costing the major power 500T. In this case, the funds received due to winning the battle against the major power will be added to the treasury of that major power “sponsoring” the attack on the other major power.
2. If a minor power client state wins a battle against a major power, it will cost the major power 500T if it is a decisive loss, 200T if a non-decisive loss and a further 300T if 2 consecutive losses. In the case of a draw, both player’s major power will have a reduction of 200T from their treasury. For example, Macedon has a draw with Sparta. This will cost Macedon 200T and if Rome is playing Sparta, it will cost Rome 200T. If Sparta had won the battle, the booty from Macedon (500T if a decisive loss or 200T if not) would be given to Rome, who in this case is Sparta’s sponsor.
3. If there is a draw in which a minor power defender fails to inflict a minimum of 10% casualties on the attacker, the attacker will ravage. The result of this is that the attacker will not incur the 200T cost for the draw having offset the cost with plunder. If the minor power is a client state or province, ravaging will also eliminate its income for the 2 year turn, thus costing its patron major power that income. Two consecutive years of ravaging weaken the minor state. If an already weakened state is ravaged, it will capitulate to the attacking power and become a client.

The Italian lotto results for 19 April are below. We are using the Italian cities lotto for determination of movement. The active pool will be those that responded in 274 B.C. So, for 273 BC:

1. Epirus – Firenze - will respond - 10,15,54,64,78
2. Rome – Roma - will respond - 7,10,16,33,38
3. Macedon – Milano - will respond - 6,12,22,73,88
4. Gauls – Napoli - will respond - 43,50,58,65,73
5. Carthage – Palermo - will be active - 10,60,69,79,87
6. Seleucids – Genova - will be active - 7,28,35,43,61
7. Ptolemaic – Torino - will be active - 12,33,34,45,58
8. Antigonus – Venezia - will be active - 34,45,46,76,89

The order of active movers is in order of the lowest number received on a ball. The response pool will be in order of the highest number received on a ball, with highest number responding to lowest number. If there is a tie, the next lowest/highest ball will be used.

Seleucids have the lowest active number and will move first. Macedon has the highest respond number, so will defend. Ian, please set up a medium battle as Atropatene. If you choose the AI to play, please specify terrain.
Carthage has the second lowest active number, so will move second. Epirus has the second highest respond number.
Ptolemy has the third lowest active number, so will move third. Gauls have the third highest respond number.
Antigonus has the fourth lowest active number, so will move fourth. Rome will respond.

The battle between Rome and Campania is in its last turn, with the last movement by Rome. Right now, looks to be a draw, (53% Campania-57% Rome) but Rome has a chance of victory. Since Campania is in a weakened state, the result of the battle could influence the choice made by Carthage. If Luigi has time today to make this move, the game will be over and I will update the map and results of 274 B.C.

The battle between Romans and Campanians should have ended in a draw (57% vs 56%) after 24 very very long turns ...
Mac has to control out because the turn is now in his basket!

Roman and Campanian battle over, a hard fought draw. We move to 273 B.C. Carthage has the choice of move. Campania remains in a weakened state. Carthage has the next choice of move. The map is below.