Slitherine

hscic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:02 am

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:32 pm

hscic wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:13 pm Just a suggestion for this MOD. During a match a cavalry unit charged an infantry unit that was positioned in a wood. The charge was not requested but it was a so called "Anarchy Charge".
... I agree that a cavalry unit could charge an infantry unit without orders if the troopers can be led to think there is a good chance of success ... but never ever a cavalry unit will charge in the direction of a wood because the trunks would represent an obstacle for the horses and because there would be no space to reorganize after a charge. I believe it would be better to correct this aspect.

do you have a screenshot for this? units already shouldn't anarchy charge into disordering terrain in the mod. I've tested it again to make sure, and it should be working. I'd like to see the exact terrain matchup that led to that anarchy charge so I can make better tests.

No I haven't. Anyway an Andalusian infantry unit (or a massed archers unit...I am not sure) was positioned at the edge of a wood down hill and it was anarchy charged by a Franks Lancers unit.

Got it.

edb1815 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:37 pm Lastly I have not decided on the removal of the auto cohesion drop for flank attacks. This mechanism is such an integral part of the FOG system. If you think in terms of a line of HI being flanked was deadly. I am not sure there should be a difference between a flank and a rear attack for cohesion purposes. Cavalry might be a different matter and of course doesn't drop if hit by infantry anyway.

I'm starting to think similarly... Flank attacks don't seem to be as deadly as perhaps they should be. I'm not sure...

hscic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:01 pm

hscic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:02 am

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:32 pm

do you have a screenshot for this? units already shouldn't anarchy charge into disordering terrain in the mod. I've tested it again to make sure, and it should be working. I'd like to see the exact terrain matchup that led to that anarchy charge so I can make better tests.

No I haven't. Anyway an Andalusian infantry unit (or a massed archers unit...I am not sure) was positioned at the edge of a wood down hill and it was anarchy charged by a Franks Lancers unit.

Got it.

is that cavalry unit engaged in combat? Are you talking about the one facing the irregular foot on the tracks between the forest? If so, tracks are not disordering terrain.

TomoeGozen wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:39 pm

edb1815 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:37 pm Lastly I have not decided on the removal of the auto cohesion drop for flank attacks. This mechanism is such an integral part of the FOG system. If you think in terms of a line of HI being flanked was deadly. I am not sure there should be a difference between a flank and a rear attack for cohesion purposes. Cavalry might be a different matter and of course doesn't drop if hit by infantry anyway.

I'm starting to think similarly... Flank attacks don't seem to be as deadly as perhaps they should be. I'm not sure...

yes, part of the idea is to motivate you more to get rear attacks from large cavalry flanks, rather than mid-line 45 degree flanks. After playing many alt mod games I've found that I prefer the way the mod does it, but it is a big transition to make, because like edb said it's changing an integral mechanic quite a bit, and so you do want to come in with a bit of a different mindset. If you just play it like vanilla you will be frustrated. There were some lengthy discussions on it in the previous alt mod and flank mod threads if you want to see some veteran forum goers post essays on the topic. It's a change with many implications.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:04 pm

TomoeGozen wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:39 pm

edb1815 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:37 pm Lastly I have not decided on the removal of the auto cohesion drop for flank attacks. This mechanism is such an integral part of the FOG system. If you think in terms of a line of HI being flanked was deadly. I am not sure there should be a difference between a flank and a rear attack for cohesion purposes. Cavalry might be a different matter and of course doesn't drop if hit by infantry anyway.

I'm starting to think similarly... Flank attacks don't seem to be as deadly as perhaps they should be. I'm not sure...

yes, part of the idea is to motivate you more to get rear attacks from large cavalry flanks, rather than mid-line 45 degree flanks. After playing many alt mod games I've found that I prefer the way the mod does it, but it is a big transition to make, because like edb said it's changing an integral mechanic quite a bit, and so you do want to come in with a bit of a different mindset. If you just play it like vanilla you will be frustrated. There were some lengthy discussions on it in the previous alt mod and flank mod threads if you want to see some veteran forum goers post essays on the topic. It's a change with many implications.

You're right of course. It needs a change of mindset. As you pointed out , it requires flanking forces to win on the flank and get in to the rear of the main line. Probably somewhat more realistic than what we've been doing up until now. I just need to get used to it

TomoeGozen (Andalusian) defeats random27 (Franks) 53-21.

On my right the Frankish mediums and lights were lured in to a dark forest packed full of Andalusian lights , mediums and massed archers. Very few Franks left it alive. In the centre where the two lines of spearmen faced off against each other a couple of fortunate breakthroughs by the muslim spears allowed them to turn about and get some rear attacks that started the collapse of the Frankish centre. On my left where I had massed my cavalry for the decisive flanking move things went horribly wrong of course The Frankish cavalry won decisively but fortunately for me the they were too late coming to the rescue.

Thanks to random27 for a good game.

Schweetness101 (Frankish) defeats cromlechi (Andalusian) 50 - 31
Schweetness101 (Andalusian) defeats cromlechi (Frankish) 40 - 13

cromlechi: 31 and 13 points
schweetness: 50 + 19 = 69 and 50 + 27 = 77 points

ggs to cromlechi

Warg1 (Frankish) defeats hscic (Andalusian) 54 - 39
Warg1 (Andalusian) defeats hscic (Frankish) 45 - 16

hscic: 39 and 16 points
Warg1: 50 + 15 = 65 and 50 + 29 = 79 points

Cunningcairn - Andalusian beat Ulysisgrunt - Frankish with Croatian ally by 52% to 32%

Aetius39 (Andalusian) defeats ianiow (Frankish) 53-30

Aetius - 73 points

Ianiow - 30 points

Andalusians managed to break the line before Frankish cavalry could turn around and create a disaster. GG Ian!

TomoeGozen (Franks) defeats random27 (Andalusians) 51-39.

Very similar to our other game...
On my left the Frankish massed archers and lights lurked in a dark forest and held off a large attack by Andalusian lights and mediums. On my right where I had massed my cavalry for the decisive flanking move things were fairly indecisive with both sides having victories and defeats. Consequently the centre where the two lines of spearmen faced off a was pretty much left on it's own. Once again I got a couple of lucky breakthroughs with spearmen who were then able to turn about and hit the Andalusians in the rear.

Thanks to random27 for another very good and close game.

Aetius39 (Frankish) defeats ianiow (Andalusian) 51-36

Aetius - 50+15 = 65 points

Ianiow - 36 points

Frankish cavalry helped break up the Andalusian right side, while the other side had less luck and bore the brunt of the casualties. Hard-fought battle for the Franks! If the cutoff was 60 percent instead of 50, the tide might have turned for them as a lot of Frankish units were beaten up by the end. GG again, Ian!

Lots of closer matches in this tournament compared to the Digital League.

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:54 am Lots of closer matches in this tournament compared to the Digital League.

yes looking at the results it does seem like there have been some good, competitive games

One concern of mine is that it seems the infantry lines are still not lasting long enough for the cavalry to get around. I wonder if I ought to adjust infantry melee casualties down even more...I am very curious about the eventual post tournament feedback.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:23 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:54 am Lots of closer matches in this tournament compared to the Digital League.

yes looking at the results it does seem like there have been some good, competitive games

One concern of mine is that it seems the infantry lines are still not lasting long enough for the cavalry to get around. I wonder if I ought to adjust infantry melee casualties down even more...I am very curious about the eventual post tournament feedback.

Sorry I have not been able to help more, but the Digital League just about wiped me out last season and now it is already time to start a new one. I think we had got cavalry combat resolution as quick as we could really so any further change would have to be with infantry combat, I think.

results so far:

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:31 pm

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:23 pm

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:54 am Lots of closer matches in this tournament compared to the Digital League.

yes looking at the results it does seem like there have been some good, competitive games

One concern of mine is that it seems the infantry lines are still not lasting long enough for the cavalry to get around. I wonder if I ought to adjust infantry melee casualties down even more...I am very curious about the eventual post tournament feedback.

Sorry I have not been able to help more, but the Digital League just about wiped me out last season and now it is already time to start a new one. I think we had got cavalry combat resolution as quick as we could really so any further change would have to be with infantry combat, I think.

yes I think that's probably right, I should do more testing and see how many more turns infantry combat is on average delayed with 10, 15, 20% etc...melee casualty reduction (and also how it changes relative balance between different infantry unit types and qualities etc...). If I recall from my earlier testing right reducing them 10%, as is the case for most inf in the mod now, gives about 3 more turns on average.

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:41 pm yes I think that's probably right, I should do more testing and see how many more turns infantry combat is on average delayed with 10, 15, 20% etc...melee casualty reduction (and also how it changes relative balance between different infantry unit types and qualities etc...). If I recall from my earlier testing right reducing them 10%, as is the case for most inf in the mod now, gives about 3 more turns on average.

One of the things it would be good to know is if most players are still moving all their army forwards at once. If they are then that is not going to allow enough time for their cavalry to possibly win a flank and then go on to attack the enemy centre. Part of the skill with the mod is to recognise patterns of deployment and terrain etc which may give you that opportunity. Not every battle will allow you to do that though, even if you only move contingent at the start.

Logging results for this round's games

Nijis defeats Silvanol
Andalucian vs Frankish, 40-11
Frankish vs Andalucian, 44-16

Thanks for the games!

Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:00 pm

hscic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:01 pm

hscic wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:02 am

No I haven't. Anyway an Andalusian infantry unit (or a massed archers unit...I am not sure) was positioned at the edge of a wood down hill and it was anarchy charged by a Franks Lancers unit.

Got it.

is that cavalry unit engaged in combat? Are you talking about the one facing the irregular foot on the tracks between the forest? If so, tracks are not disordering terrain.

...Ummm..have you ever charged with a entire cavalry regiment along a track leading to a wood? Not me.....and I spent 40 years in cavalry units..... A truck in a wood or in the mountains is fine only for logistic movements. In combat it does not allow you to open your troops and it is just a little less difficult of the surrounding terrain.