Slitherine

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.

Also please leave any discussions about random numbers out of this. We will be ignoring them as they are not relevant to this and just confuse the discussion. In fact I'm going to ask that any discussion of it just be deleted. With the number of games in progress and the number of calculations done per turn, almost any possible outcome is going to happen. 1 in a million chances happen every day, multiple times a day. You'll even end up with one person getting two 1 in a million chances and maybe even in a row. When you have millions of people playing games this is what happens and there is no RNG that can avoid it, unless it cheats!

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.

paulmcneil wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:08 am Given that a technical solution on its own won't solve this, as you say, to everyone's satisfaction, the human factor has to come in, I suggested this earlier in the thread: "Maybe a simple solution would be - a bit like drug testing in sport, any player who wins a promotion in the dl gets drug tested i.e. the log for reloads is passed to Pete, any player who has no choice but to reload due to some catastrophic failure on their system (which should be very rare) has to tell Pete and his opponent on that turn, a judgement can be made by Pete and the opponent as to the validity of a restart, vs any likely advantage achieved, anyone who has to restart for a subsequent turn maybe is not allowed to move on those turns, but can fire? And anyone who is found to have restarted without telling Pete and their opponent is disqualified? If you are reading this Pete what do you think? (or anyone else)."

Swuul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.

Also please leave any discussions about random numbers out of this. We will be ignoring them as they are not relevant to this and just confuse the discussion. In fact I'm going to ask that any discussion of it just be deleted. With the number of games in progress and the number of calculations done per turn, almost any possible outcome is going to happen. 1 in a million chances happen every day, multiple times a day. You'll even end up with one person getting two 1 in a million chances and maybe even in a row. When you have millions of people playing games this is what happens and there is no RNG that can avoid it, unless it cheats!

Swuul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am I have to say I am still quite shocked that cheating has apparently been so easy to do in FoG2 MP games. I was sure redownloading even twice would rise the yellow banner already. But nope, no such thing. For all that I know even that 99 redownloads might not have risen any suspicions if there hadn't been that 200+ redownload case of the same person.

However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

In sports failing to participiate in drug tests three times within a year means you can take a two year break from the sports, in many countries committing a third violence crime means you are out for a very long time, in many countries recieving a third speeding ticket within a year means you can use the public transportation for a year or two, in baseball three strikes means you are out. In FoG2 "false positives" (what does that mean? if a player redownloads a turn 10 times it is "false positive", redownloading 50 times during 10 games is "false positive"?) seemingly are so dangerous that moderate cheating is ok for the common good.

Not taking action against cheaters has killed many good MP games. PUBG seems to be the latest to suffer, a massively popular game which is plummeting because cheats and the unwillingness of the publisher to take actions in fear of the same "false positive" as we seemingly have in FoG2 too. Letting cheaters roam in fear of taking action against somebody who is actually is a good person and an absolute angel who just happens to live at South Pole where electric cuts can happen 50 times a day.

I am shocked.

Swuul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am I have to say I am still quite shocked that cheating has apparently been so easy to do in FoG2 MP games. I was sure redownloading even twice would rise the yellow banner already. But nope, no such thing. For all that I know even that 99 redownloads might not have risen any suspicions if there hadn't been that 200+ redownload case of the same person.

However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

In sports failing to participiate in drug tests three times within a year means you can take a two year break from the sports, in many countries committing a third violence crime means you are out for a very long time, in many countries recieving a third speeding ticket within a year means you can use the public transportation for a year or two, in baseball three strikes means you are out. In FoG2 "false positives" (what does that mean? if a player redownloads a turn 10 times it is "false positive", redownloading 50 times during 10 games is "false positive"?) seemingly are so dangerous that moderate cheating is ok for the common good.

Not taking action against cheaters has killed many good MP games. PUBG seems to be the latest to suffer, a massively popular game which is plummeting because cheats and the unwillingness of the publisher to take actions in fear of the same "false positive" as we seemingly have in FoG2 too. Letting cheaters roam in fear of taking action against somebody who is actually is a good person and an absolute angel who just happens to live at South Pole where electric cuts can happen 50 times a day.

I am shocked.

cromlechi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:55 pm But this is not the Olympics or violent crime, this is a minor hobby for most players. Anyone that cheats and I guess they are few is really just cheating themselves. At least I know on the odd occasions when I win it was done on merit and I would prefer that to a 100 unmerited victories and suspect most people are the same. There are still a lot of people who like the historical simulation aspect as well and the competition is just a small part of it. I agree we need to deter cheaters but I also appreciate the time and effort that goes into developing these games. Let's keep some perspective. Best wishes Adam

sarmation wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:22 pm division c
sarmation phokian challenge MikeMarchant greek asiatic
pm sent

GeneralKostas wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:55 pm Theoretically, one simple solution to the cheating problem is to disable reloading of turns.