Slitherine

Ludendorf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:41 pm I agree that changing the element of luck in the game shouldn't influence the discussion. There is maybe grounds to discuss that on its own merits, but it warrants its own thread.

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm The argument proposed by Cairn and whoever else seems nonsensical to me. I really don't know how it can be connected to cheating.

Take warbands.. let's say they are easy to break but they don't break. The cheater just tries again and eventually gets his reward. Let's say that warbands are actually not so easy to break. The cheater will just keep trying (like 225 times!!) and eventually get his reward.

The actual stats, percentages and probabilites have nothing to do with the actual motivation to cheat. If it can be done then the cheater will do it.

NikiforosFokas wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:32 pm NikiforosFokas' Carthaginians defeat phoyle3290's Carthaginians, 44-13%.
Thanks for the game, phoylee.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:01 pm

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm The argument proposed by Cairn and whoever else seems nonsensical to me. I really don't know how it can be connected to cheating.

Take warbands.. let's say they are easy to break but they don't break. The cheater just tries again and eventually gets his reward. Let's say that warbands are actually not so easy to break. The cheater will just keep trying (like 225 times!!) and eventually get his reward.

The actual stats, percentages and probabilites have nothing to do with the actual motivation to cheat. If it can be done then the cheater will do it.

LOL! C'mon who is insane enough to try 225 times If you were inclined to cheat surely you agree you would do that if there was a good chance you got a result with only one or two restarts. I am not suggesting ant dramatic changes to the game. I'm talking about minor tweeks.

We did need a system we can trust as very unlikely combat sequences can occur without cheating. In the ongoing Slitherine tournament this past week I was playing Triarii who can attest to this. I made four warband attacks against other warbands or medium infantry. In three consecutive attacks all in the same turn, my warbands not only lost but double dropped to fragmentation. The fourth combat was inconclusive. I went from winning to losing in one turn. Now to be fair this is the first time I have ever seen three double drops in the same turn. And I have played a lot of FOG2 as Steam records my hours as over 3300. Two double drops in the same turn are a lot more common and I estimate I have seen one or two most league seasons. A system we can trust to be relatively foolproof is needed or I am afraid we are going to see cheating accusations based on unusual but honest runs of good and/or bad luck.
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Harvey

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:01 pm

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm The argument proposed by Cairn and whoever else seems nonsensical to me. I really don't know how it can be connected to cheating.

Take warbands.. let's say they are easy to break but they don't break. The cheater just tries again and eventually gets his reward. Let's say that warbands are actually not so easy to break. The cheater will just keep trying (like 225 times!!) and eventually get his reward.

The actual stats, percentages and probabilites have nothing to do with the actual motivation to cheat. If it can be done then the cheater will do it.

LOL! C'mon who is insane enough to try 225 times If you were inclined to cheat surely you agree you would do that if there was a good chance you got a result with only one or two restarts. I am not suggesting ant dramatic changes to the game. I'm talking about minor tweeks.

No, with the greatest respect I think you are trying to promote your own agenda. Yes, keep creating threads about RNG and probability but don't connect it directly to cheating.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 pm

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:01 pm

LOL! C'mon who is insane enough to try 225 times If you were inclined to cheat surely you agree you would do that if there was a good chance you got a result with only one or two restarts. I am not suggesting ant dramatic changes to the game. I'm talking about minor tweeks.

No, with the greatest respect I think you are trying to promote your own agenda. Yes, keep creating threads about RNG and probability but don't connect it directly to cheating.

LOL again! Every single post made here is someone's own agenda or more correctly opinion.

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:35 pm I understand your frustration but any change has to be thought through. This is not a simple thing to resolve without causing as much damage as good so we need to evaluate the options here and make sure we get it right. This was a perfect storm of support staff being on holiday so the team being undermanned and not monitoring the system as closely as they should and letting someone get away with something they clearly shouldn't. Previous cheating has already been dealt with and users involved banned. I'm not saying we wont make any changes but we're going to look at the data across all games and work out how we can better detect cheating from normal behaviour, not a knee jerk reaction.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:25 pm

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 pm

SLancaster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 pm

No, with the greatest respect I think you are trying to promote your own agenda. Yes, keep creating threads about RNG and probability but don't connect it directly to cheating.

LOL again! Every single post made here is someone's own agenda or more correctly opinion.

You have been warned not to try to hijack threads before. Please desist.

MikeC_81 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:54 pm

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:35 pm I understand your frustration but any change has to be thought through. This is not a simple thing to resolve without causing as much damage as good so we need to evaluate the options here and make sure we get it right. This was a perfect storm of support staff being on holiday so the team being undermanned and not monitoring the system as closely as they should and letting someone get away with something they clearly shouldn't. Previous cheating has already been dealt with and users involved banned. I'm not saying we wont make any changes but we're going to look at the data across all games and work out how we can better detect cheating from normal behaviour, not a knee jerk reaction.

This will be my last post in the thread until you guys have an official answer as to what changes you will be making to the system since you deserve some (but not a lot) of time to discuss the issue internally and effect changes. This official answer should be posted in the main FoG2 forum as a sticky and not buried in the FoG2 DL subforum. I will say that a lot of what you posted I consider utter nonsense.

How do you know previous cheaters have been dealt with? You lack the context of what happens in the game when all you have is upload vs download numbers. How many are doing low-level cheating by strategically save scumming at critical points? It is impossible to tell for an automated checker. No automated system can do this since they don't have context. We on the other hand as player DO have context but we lack the data to see it ourselves. As I said before, no one runs up 225 reloads in one game without a steady ramp-up to that ridiculous number. That means he had been doing it and building up to that kind of behaviour with your system failing to catch it. We now have ample anecdotal evidence from his previous opponents across different time periods attesting to strange occurrences that can no longer be explained by RNG. *So don't sit here and expect me to believe the line about the "perfect storm"*. That is BS, you know it, I know it, anyone who understands how to savescum in FoG2 knows it. Your system failed here and at multiple points in time in the past.


That is why transparency is what is required right now. In-game or out-of-game notifications when the server sends you the latest saved file telling you how many reloads your opponent did for that turn is almost a must-have as this point to restore player confidence. FoG2 rolls a lot of dice. With dozens of players playing dozens of games adding up; crazy events can and will happen. I have a video on Youtube showing two such instances in one game. One for my opponent, one for me. When the game or email notifies you that your opponent didn't reload the turn at all, it buries any and all speculation of cheating via save scumming. Bottom line, end of story. You as a player can rest assured that you just got screwed by RNGesus and move on. Without transparency, every single odd event begins to be questioned. You can see it happening already in this very thread where Thunderbird got accused. If there was an email notification saying Thunderbird had a 1:1 ratio, there is no way he would be accused. When you put the data in the player's hands, we can pool our data together and figure out cheaters like dkalenda far more quickly or exonerate players as a group when we can all say that reloads from Player X is rare to nonexistent. Without data, players cannot speak since we do not have the facts and are afraid of false accusations as several people I have spoken to have said. They refuse to provide names even in confidence since they believe it to be unfair and they are right - since we do not have data.


*Finally, let me state it as plainly as possible, reloading turns is not "normal behaviour"* as you would term it. It is either technical difficulties which any reasonable person would stop play and resolve prior to continuing. It should be considered abnormal behaviour and the onus is on the player to resolve these issues on their end prior to continuing play. The PBEM server itself feels like it is running off my cell phone with throttled data at times. Strongly consider an upgrade. Even then, with a bad server and a crappy internet connection my end for months, I have had to resend turns two times that I can remember since I started playing this game at launch so the odds of this being "normal" behaviour is absurd.

Fix this problem.

nyczar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:59 pm I bought Pike and Shot but couldn't get over the funny looking blocks that were the units and never invested time to play. I will have to revisit P &S in the off season to check out the game play differences...