Slitherine

bru888 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:23 pm [...] The reason is, I went with this OOB of the First Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Army_(France)

And I subtracted out what the I Corps article said: "For the remainder of the war in Europe, many French divisions would be subordinated to 1st Army Corps, but the divisions that spent the most time with the corps were the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division (2e DIM), the 9th Colonial Infantry Division (9e DIC), the 4th Moroccan Mountain Division (4e DMM), and the 1st Armoured Division (1re DB)." [...]

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:48 am So, it should have been the 1re French DB than has helped the experienced to veteran US infantry units to land, shouldn't it? Probably worth being mentionned somewhere...

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 am By the way, now we could as well add some named concrete bunkers inside Toulon as well... we've several candidates for this given by this French link.

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:15 am There is a point that surprises me with the commandos that are visible on the map (screenshot): why the British and not the Americans?

Apparently, the British were only there in their planes and on their ships...

The last link found shows a map as well without an English flag down there but an US one... and we've tracks of the implication of the "First Special Service Force" (under "Preliminary operations​" here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon for example)... and these guys, by the way, were Americans AND Canadians, so one could even represent 2 units under the US flag and 1 unit under the Canadian flag (instead of these 3 British flags, that is).

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm I have been wondering about Toulon forts. What link?

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:09 pm [...]

3) But as to the composition of II Corps, that's where I was stumped. A corps can be reorganized repeatedly, with divisions swapped in and out. Yes, indeed. [...]

4) This map clearly shows the divisions involved:
1st Free French Division (1er DFL)
3rd Algerian Infantry Division (3e DIA)
1st Armoured Division (1er DB) => The 1st instead of the 5th? Okay for me.
9th Colonial Division (9e DIC) => Yes, this one was definitely involved!
As one says "une division" (a feminine word), one has to write 1re DFL and 1re DB (but the 3e DIA and 9e DIC are perfect like this).

I am comfortable with this lineup; four divisions, approximately 60-70 land units. Yes, let's go like this! The 1er DFL includes some old friends: Indeed!

1ST FREE FRENCH DIVISION (1er DFL): => Watch out: 1re DFL (it's "une" Division, a feminine word)
1st Battalion of the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion, 13e DBLE
2nd Battalion of the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion, 13e DBLE
22nd North-African Marching Battalion (French: 22e Bataillon Nord-Africain, 22e BMNA)
Marching Battalion nº 4, BM 4
Marching Battalion nº 5, BM 5
Marching Battalion nº 11, BM 11
Marching Battalion nº 21, BM 21
Marching Battalion nº 24, BM 24
Marine Infantry and Pacific Battalion
1er Régiment de Fusiliers Marins, 1er RFM (tank)
1er Régiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (tank)
1st Artillery Regiment of Free French Forces, RAFFL. (two guns)
21st anti-aircraft group of the Antilles, part of the Antillean Marching Battalion no 1.
1st Engineering Battalion
4th Anti-Tank company
11e Régiment de cuirassiers (recon)

And I am rid of those blasted Moroccan Goums!

ColonelY wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:01 pm OPERATION DRAGOON: (Again!)

A more detailed look at the actual composition of these French divisions:
“1re division de Français libres” (general Brosset):
• “13e Demi-brigade de Légion étrangère” (DBLE, which icludes here its two first battalions!)
• “22e Bataillon de marche nord-africain” (22e BMNA)
• As “Bataillon de marche” (BM), the followings: 4e (BM), 5e, 11e, 21e and 24e
• And the “Bataillon d’infanterie de marine et du Pacifique” (BIMP; composed by the merger of two battalions that distinguished themselves at Bir Hakeim!)
• “1er Régiment de Fusiliers marins” (another famous one, as well as the 13e DBLE!)
• “1re Compagnie de chars de combat” (with medium tanks Renault R35)
• “11e Régiment de cuirassiers” (with medium tanks Sherman M4A1 and some light tanks Chaffee) => so not that much "recon"...
• “1er Régiment d’artillerie des Forces Françaises Libres” (RAFFL)
• “21e Groupe antillais de DCA” (with some AA-gun)
• “1er Bataillon du Génie” (an unit of engineers)
• “4e Compagnie anti-chars” (with some AT-gun)

“9e division d’infanterie coloniale” (gen. Magnan):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs sénégalais” the followings: 4e, 6e and 13e
• “Régiment d’infanterie coloniale du Maroc” (RICM; a recon unit on armored cars!)
• “Régiment d’artillerie coloniale du Maroc”
• “Régiment colonial de chasseurs de chars” (tank-destroyers M10)
• “71e Bataillon du Génie” (as engineers)
• “2e RAC-AOF” + “3e RAC-AOF” (i.e. groupe du Régiment d’Artillerie Coloniale d’Afrique occidentale)
• “25e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep) => Nah, let's forget about this... ( )
• A group with AA-guns

“2e division d’infanterie marocaine” (gen. Dody):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs marocains”, the followings: 4e, 5e and 8e
• “3e Régiment de Spahis marocains” (with one squadron on M5 light tanks and three squadrons as recon on “Scoot Car”)
• “63e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “DARR” (i.e. Détachement d'Appui du Régiment de Reconnaissance -> so probably another armored recon unit)
• “41e Groupe de DCA”
• “87e Bataillon du Génie”
• “9e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)

“3e division d’infanterie algérienne” (gen. de Monsabert):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs algériens”, the followings: 3e, 7e (RTA)
• “4e Régiment de Tirailleurs tunisiens” (4e RTT)
• “3e Régiment de Spahis algériens de reconnaissance” (3e RSAR; some recon unit on armored car)
• “7e Régiment de chasseurs d’Afrique” (7e RCA; used some American tanks, probably some Sherman too… this regiment was first used as a reserve unit before being adapted to this infantry division…)
• “67e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “37e Groupe de DCA”
• “83e Bataillon du Génie”
• “3e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)

“4e division marocaine de montagne” (gen. Sevez)
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs marocains”, the followings: 1er and 6e
• “1er Régiment de Tirailleurs algériens”
• “4e Régiment de Spahis marocains” (with one squadron on M5 light tanks and three squadrons as recon on “Scoot Car”)
• “64e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “69e Régiment d’artillerie de montagne”
• “33e Groupe de DCA”
• “82e Bataillon du Génie”
• “8e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)

“1re division blindée” (gen. Touzet du Vigier)
• As “Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique”, the followings: 2e (RCA) and 5e (both with tanks Sherman), as well as the 3e (recon!) and the 9e (tank-destroyers M10)
• “2e Régiment de Cuirassiers” (with again some tanks Sherman)
• Three independent and motorized infantry units, as “Bataillon de Zouaves” the followings: 1er, 2e and 3e
• “68e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “38e Groupe de DCA”
• “88e Bataillon du Génie”
• “15e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)

“5e division blindée” (gen. de Vernejoul)
• “Régiment de marche de la Légion étrangère” (RMLE ; motorized infantry – 3 battalions!)
• “1er Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (1e RCA ; tanks Sherman)
• “6e Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (6e RCA ; tanks Sherman)
• “11e Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (11e RCA ; tank-destroyers M10)
• “1er Régiment de Cuirassiers” (1e CUIR ; tanks Somua and Hotchkiss, almost 50%/50% - if a single unit in the campaign must represent this regiment, then take the best tank available between the Somua and the Hotchkiss, of course!)
• “1er Régiment étranger de Cavalerie” (1e REC ; part of the “Légion étrangère” ; actually used as an armored recon unit, with some armored cars or something)
• “62e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “31e Groupe de DCA”
• “96e Bataillon du Génie”
• “14e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
************************
The Americans had the 6th Corps (General Truscott) with 3 infantry divisions (the 3rd, the 45th and the 36th) and 1 airborne division, all of which belonged to General Patch's 7th Army. (We’ll come back to this later…)

Naval force: an armada of many allied warships, including 34 French ships (the battleship Lorraine, 3 cruisers, about twenty destroyers – at least “contre-torpilleurs” and “avisos”, etc.).

So, a more detailed look at these Free French naval forces: => There to make choices (of course we expect British ships as well and perhaps, for the flavor, one from New Zealand as well...
• 1 battleship: Lorraine
• 3 cruisers: Émile Bertin, Jeanne d’Arc, Dubuay-Trouin
• 3 light cruiser: Le Terrible, Le Fantasque, Le Malin
• Many destroyers (of all kinds): Le Fortuné, Le Forbin, Le Tempête, Le Simoun, L'Alcyon, Le Marocain, Le Tunisien, Le Hova, L'Algérien, Le Somali, La Gracieuse, La Boudeuse, Le Commandant Delage, Le Commandant Bory, Le Commandant Dominé, La Moqueuse

For naval support only, there was even Greece and New Zealand!
Air force: 5,000 aircraft (fighters, bombers, reconnaissance or transport).
For air support only, there was even Australia and South Africa!
[...]

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 am By the way, now we could as well add some named concrete bunkers inside Toulon as well... we've several candidates for this given by this French link.

I have been wondering about Toulon forts. What link? [...]

ColonelY wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:25 pm Dragoon - some complements to what I've already written:

So, on overall:
[...
]
Germans: 7 infantry divisions (including the 148th, 242nd, 244th) + 1 armored division + several battalions of the Ost Legion + the Mediterranean Wall (of course less solid than the Atlantic Wall, but still for a total of 600 concrete works)... + Toulon and Marseille which form 2 formidable strongholds regrouping a total of 400 artillery pieces of all calibers (105mm, 150mm, 155mm, etc., + ATs of 25 and 37mm), including 340mm naval guns...

German garrison of Toulon: 30 forts, abundant artillery and innumerable casemates, 18'000 men (some from the 242nd ID, others from the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe) commanded by the admiral Ruhfus... (The French had only 16'000 men to lead the assault, but it was a brilliant victory).
Toulon: harbor, arsenal, Thouar massif, Fontpré castle, Coudon and La Pourdière forts...

[...] Marseille: General Schaeffer, commander of the 244th ID, has 13'000 men and 150 to 200 guns ranging from 75 to 220 mm. The defensive system was less dense than in Toulon! (The French attacked with a maximum of 10'000 men!) There are resistance fighters in the city or around (the population revolted!)... It seems that the Germans could have been at a maximum of 20'000 men there...

On August 19, 1944, the Germans received orders from their superiors to withdraw, except for the garrisons of Toulon and Marseille who were ordered to resist at all costs.

[...]

Info: the battery of the Titan (one of the objectives of the commandos) was in fact only a perfectly camouflaged decoy.

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm [...] By the way, I was thinking of making these commandos go away after their mission in the the Îles d'Hyères but, since there are many bunkers and guns in the Mediterranean Wall, they could paddle over to the mainland and help with that objective (as long as they stay out of the way of any regular German troops, that is; they are somewhat challenged by the Bautruppen that they face on the islands!). Agree?

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:48 pm [...] So I will forgo any forts in Toulon.

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm Although, I could put two fortresses in Toulon here and here (which approximate their positions in Operation Lila Denied):

[...]

They would not be part of the Mediterranean Wall (which is bunkers and coastal guns). What do you think? Too much or just right? [...]

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm [...] That's two questions pending for you, sir.

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:24 pm

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm [...] By the way, I was thinking of making these commandos go away after their mission in the the Îles d'Hyères but, since there are many bunkers and guns in the Mediterranean Wall, they could paddle over to the mainland and help with that objective (as long as they stay out of the way of any regular German troops, that is; they are somewhat challenged by the Bautruppen that they face on the islands!). Agree?

Oh yes, I do. Let's keep them!

These commandos have been used not only on these islands... So, to stick closer to History, we have to keep them. Now, if some player don't want to bother with them later, well, he can just put them to sleep (on the conquered islands or something) and then all's said - it would be his choice, after all!

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:35 pm

bru888 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm Although, I could put two fortresses in Toulon here and here (which approximate their positions in Operation Lila Denied):

[...]

They would not be part of the Mediterranean Wall (which is bunkers and coastal guns). What do you think? Too much or just right? [...]

Two fortresses there as well?

Well, they were there previously (and could have been repaired since November 42 ). And we know that Toulon was actually even more defended than Marseille... So, I would say, "Yes, please, add these two fortresses there!"

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:05 am

ColonelY wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:48 am So, it should have been the 1re French DB than has helped the experienced to veteran US infantry units to land, shouldn't it? Probably worth being mentionned somewhere...

We have for example the map shown here, http://chez.jeannette.fleurs.over-blog. ... vence.html , that highlight somehow this point with the 1re DB in the NE of the map... And there are 4 cool pictures within this link as well!

So, for our scenario, the "1re DB" or the "5e DB"? Oh, well, let's go with the "1re DB", as you said, and that's it!
It may be easier to figure out for the player: "okay, so the 2e DB with Leclerc entering France through Normandy and the 1re DB with Tassigny entering through Provence" (So, really, not need to emphasize too much about the 5e... then, what about the 3e and the 4e?, etc. Many questions could be raised easily...)