Slitherine

guamokolatokint wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:00 pm

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:54 pm Could you share the titles of the books you are proposing by Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand, please? Thanks!

Das Heer 1933—1945. Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues.
Band I: Das Heer bis zum Kriegsbeginn. Mittler. Darmstadt 1954.
Band II. Die Blitzfeldzüge 1939—1941. Das Heer im Kriege bis zum Beginn des Feldzuges gegen die Sowjetunion im Juni 1941. Mittler. Frankfurt am Main 1956.
Band III. Der Zweifrontenkrieg. Das Heer vom Beginn des Feldzuges gegen die Sowjetunion bis zum Kriegsende. Mittler. Frankfurt am Main 1969.

do any of these have an english translation?

Hi Locarnus

Some findings:
- Re.2000 and Re.2000 AS use vanilla icon and "flavour picture" (for a lack of a better term. I mean the pic in the upper right on the purchase screen)
- PzJg I (Tp) and Pz II C+ (Tp) don't have a "flavour picture"
- Ba.65 is lacking the switch to landed mode


RE: Move Method Horse
Horses have 50% move cost on desert terrain. That's the same as Move Method Leg. Move Method Light Inf on the other hand seems to have a basic 1 move cost.
This means that horses, including Cavalry, are as slow as "normal" infantry, while light infantry is faster than horses.
Would you consider changing cost in the desert for Move Method Horse to 33% please? That way horses would be faster than "normal" infantry, and as fast as pack mules and light+mountain infantry (Move Methods Alpine + Light Inf) in the desert.

JanD wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:06 pm Hi Locarnus

Some findings:
- Re.2000 and Re.2000 AS use vanilla icon and "flavour picture" (for a lack of a better term. I mean the pic in the upper right on the purchase screen)
- PzJg I (Tp) and Pz II C+ (Tp) don't have a "flavour picture"
- Ba.65 is lacking the switch to landed mode


RE: Move Method Horse
Horses have 50% move cost on desert terrain. That's the same as Move Method Leg. Move Method Light Inf on the other hand seems to have a basic 1 move cost.
This means that horses, including Cavalry, are as slow as "normal" infantry, while light infantry is faster than horses.
Would you consider changing cost in the desert for Move Method Horse to 33% please? That way horses would be faster than "normal" infantry, and as fast as pack mules and light+mountain infantry (Move Methods Alpine + Light Inf) in the desert.

Jan is right on with his requests here

Their is not a proper picture for the Desert Panzerjaeger

Of course horses in desert. Example, how about the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse

The Arabian developed in a desert climate and was prized by the nomadic Bedouin people (*)

or the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namib_Desert_Horse

(*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spahi

(light cavalry regiments of the French army)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Spahis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savari

(Italian...)

Thank you for all the feedback!

About movement:
So far I did not check horse movement in the desert. I'll have to read up on that one, also with regards to the challenges of Africa Corps campaign and the experiences of France, Italy and the British Empire before WW2, thanks for all the input!
When I last tested, it seemed as if the movement file is not updated during a campaign, not even between scenarios.
So any improvements in this regard might only benefit future playthroughs (and some might even make future updates incompatible with existing campaigns, because movement points of units are updated between scenarios).

About unit pictures:
Whoops, still missing pictures. My apologies, should have been fixed by now.
I'll also have to investigate the Ba.65 and Re.2000 issues and add them to my to do list for the next update.

https://histrf.ru/read/articles/s-shash ... voi-voinie



https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D ... ource=serp

So returning to my previous post, it looks like the vanilla German "Grenadier" unit is named incorrectly in the game as it depicts a heavy infantry unit with higher attack stats and reduced leg movement which in most cases necessitates giving it a land transport to make it a motorised infantry unit. When in reality the term "Grenadier" was used for all regular, non-motorised German infantry units from late 1942, down from the regimental level. I did not find any proof that it was ever used for German heavy infantry in WW2. The heavy weapon equipped company of an infantry regiment was called "MG Kompanie" or "Maschinengewehrkompanie" in case of the heavy machine gun company and "Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie" in case of the infantry support gun company.

Here is a post which describes the changes in designation of the German infantry in WW2:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopi ... 34#p110820

In short, it looks like the term "Grenadier" on its own was not used for motorised infantry units, for that the term "Grenadier (mot)" was used. Without the "(mot)" or (motorisiert) added after "Grenadier" it was used for non-motorised regular infantry units.

In 1939 there were three designations for the regular infantry units (which were not Jäger or something else):

Infanterie: non-motorised infantry
Infanterie (mot): motorised infantry
Schützen: the motorised infantry element of the panzer divisions

Then in 1942 these were all redesignated to increase morale, and thus:
"Infanterie" became "Grenadier",
"Infanterie (mot)" became "Grenadier (mot)",
"Schützen" became "Panzergrenadier".

It was only a renaming, a morale booster, there was no change in organization or equipment. And these new designations were only used up to the regimental level. So for example the name "15. Infanterie Division" did not change, only its regiments were renamed like from "Infanterie-Regiment 81" to "Grenadier-Reigment 81". And likewise the lower levels, Battalion and Kompanie.

McGuba wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:23 am So returning to my previous post, it looks like the vanilla German "Grenadier" unit is named incorrectly in the game as it depicts a heavy infantry unit with higher attack stats and reduced leg movement which in most cases necessitates giving it a land transport to make it a motorised infantry unit. When in reality the term "Grenadier" was used for all regular, non-motorised German infantry units from late 1942, down from the regimental level. I did not find any proof that it was ever used for German heavy infantry in WW2. The heavy weapon equipped company of an infantry regiment was called "MG Kompanie" or "Maschinengewehrkompanie" in case of the heavy machine gun company and "Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie" in case of the infantry support gun company.

Here is a post which describes the changes in designation of the German infantry in WW2:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopi ... 34#p110820

In short, it looks like the term "Grenadier" on its own was not used for motorised infantry units, for that the term "Grenadier (mot)" was used. Without the "(mot)" or (motorisiert) added after "Grenadier" it was used for non-motorised regular infantry units.

In 1939 there were three designations for the regular infantry units (which were not Jäger or something else):

Infanterie: non-motorised infantry
Infanterie (mot): motorised infantry
Schützen: the motorised infantry element of the panzer divisions

Then in 1942 these were all redesignated to increase morale, and thus:
"Infanterie" became "Grenadier",
"Infanterie (mot)" became "Grenadier (mot)",
"Schützen" became "Panzergrenadier".

It was only a renaming, a morale booster, there was no change in organization or equipment. And these new designations were only used up to the regimental level. So for example the name "15. Infanterie Division" did not change, only its regiments were renamed like from "Infanterie-Regiment 81" to "Grenadier-Reigment 81". And likewise the lower levels, Battalion and Kompanie.

Wow I did not know this. Thanks for sharing this information, to be honest this makes me think about the units we play with. Very interesting the psychology of a lot of what the leaders did back in WW2.

Divisions in name only and the like.

I think the Germans also renamed infantry division to panzer divisions (that then had almost no tanks)...

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:06 pm I think the Germans also renamed infantry division to panzer divisions (that then had almost no tanks)...

One example ?

terminator wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:31 pm

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:06 pm I think the Germans also renamed infantry division to panzer divisions (that then had almost no tanks)...

One example ?

There were several, one example is this one, just read the paragraph on the year 1942, 30 operational tanks is not a lot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Panz ... Wehrmacht)

For some more context:
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 50#p902350
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_G ... _divisions (incl. list of renamed)
https://tmg110.tripod.com/ger_pzd1.htm

Hi Locarnus


Some more findings:
- name inconsistency on 21cm Nblwf: "r10" (short name) vs "r11" (long name)

- Cannone 47/32 "Fiat" and Cannone 75/39 "Fiat" are 92 prestige more expensive than the versions without trucks. For other "towed" units the Fiat truck costs only 72

* the following units have different cost, depending on which class/switch is active:
FlakPz I
Bison II, Bison II tropical
StuH 42, StuH 42 tropical

* Hummel, Hummel tropical: has different speed, depending on class

* the following units have different cost and speed, depending on class:
StuIG 33, StuIG 33 tropical
Grille, Grille tropical
For the StuIG, probably the Grille as well, the slower speed would be more accurate for all versions, IIRC

- Brevity (Krad) and Gazala (Marder) don't add the reward units. I realized Brevity too late and am not at Gazala yet, so that I don't have a save for testing

- additional request: my first units have reached the 3rd medal. "kills to medal" requirements are off, probably they are using BE standard



Could you look into these as well, please?

Hi, I'm currently at turn 33.

There is something weird with prestige, at the beginning of the enemy turn I see it rise to +440 and at the start of my turn it goes down 200. I understand it can happen when you upgrade some Bomber/Figthers to Fw190, but it's happening in 90% of the turns. Also, no enemy bombers at my cities.

Do you recall any trigger who could fire this behaviour?

Edit: Sorry just discovered I got a Figher for Bomber @ turn 33. But still I am getting too many turns with prestige reduction. When you are gifted units like U Boats or Infantry is there a penalty?

@McGuba:
I agree that "Grenadier" is not the proper term for a unit with those properties.
Though I'm very hesitant to open the Pandora's Box that is unit naming for WW2 in general and Germany in particular.
I like those Hetzers, Bisons, Grenadiere and 8.8cm BuFlas, since they are concise and somewhat descriptive names.
Not great, not terrible, from a cost/benefit point of view.
Especially considering all the unfortunate necessicties and attempts to convey additional information, as an addon to unit and unit type names.
Be it hero stats (eg 3A1D), rate of fire, or switch/upgrade capability.
Perhaps the full name could convey more historical naming conventions.

@JanD:
Thank you for this detailed list of bugs and omissions. It seems that I unintentionally published an equipment file, which still contained experimental values. My apologies for that.
I'll release a hotfix tomorrow, based on those bug reports (including the post with the Re.2000 and PzJg I flavour pictures).
The medals (and heros) are indeed unchanged from BE. I'm not sure how to resolve that issue (considering a single set of values).

I did not yet have time to read up on horse usage in desert Africa (between Tunisia and Egypt). And my knowledge in this regard is limited, beyond the historical light cavalry role.
However as far as I recall, "African" divisions were extremely costly in terms fo fuel consumption, compared to the average (horse drawn) division on the Eastern Front.
Due to my rl time constraints, I'll have to check that for the next regular update and focus on the straight up bugs and omissions for this hotfix.

@jpp1jpp1:
Hm, there are a number of possibilities.
The most likely culprit are probably partisans, eg sitting on the strategically important rail lines around the Pripet Marshes.
In general, prestige boni are awarded after the player turn and prestige mali are substracted before the player turn. So that itself is normal.

No problem at all, Locarnus
With hundreds (thousands?) of units in the efile, playtesting by additional people is important. "4 eyes see more than 2" as they say.


RE: heroes/medals
I see. Seems GC and USC have their own files to determine heroes and medals, so yes, AK is going to use BE standard. Is a little strange with loads of "the Cross" holders, but nothing gamebreaking


RE: horses
Sorry, forgot to answer earlier. I once read a discussion between an efile creator and people who read about the topic of horses.
IIRC the baseline was that horses, as far as "war duty" was concerned, were very common in the ETO and very rare in the MTO. So yes, for Axis and Allies in the desert, you are remembering right: units were almost exclusive either on human feet or motorized.
But please don't remove horses from the desert: playing with slow and crappy units is lots of fun

guamokolatokint wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:06 pm [...]

I really appreciate your input, from the sources you post to the rare pictures!

Unfortunately there seems to be an issue with the translation software you are using.
Some words and phrases convey "rude" connotations without adding to the argument.

To keep your valuable input from being deleted in total, I recommend editing out your text passages for the moment.
And then use https://www.deepl.com/translator for rephrasing.

JanD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:10 pm RE: horses
Sorry, forgot to answer earlier. I once read a discussion between an efile creator and people who read about the topic of horses.
IIRC the baseline was that horses, as far as "war duty" was concerned, were very common in the ETO and very rare in the MTO. So yes, for Axis and Allies in the desert, you are remembering right: units were almost exclusive either on human feet or motorized.
But please don't remove horses from the desert: playing with slow and crappy units is lots of fun

No intention to completely remove desert horses, just reservations about making them more useful. For the moment (hotfix) I left them as they were (ie only useful it for self imposed core limitations). Since changes to the movement file do not seem to affect ongoing campaigns anyway.

For everyone not checking out the AAR forum, JanD posted a great replay AAR over there!
With FM + Rommel difficulty and custom equipment limitations!
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 5&t=108930


Thank you for all the detailed bug reports and your AAR!
I'll have to continue working on some aspects when I have the time for a full update (including the Ba.65 and the Re.2000).
For now this hotfix should deal with most of the reported issues:

2022-04a Hotfix Download: https://bit.ly/3rCd6r1
- Lots of inconsistencies dealt with (names, pictures, movement points, costs and so on), thanks to the reports by JanD
- Some initial "hotfix" adjustment for the lingering bombardment icons regarding the Sicily invasion, I will have to revisit that in the future

Locarnus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:42 pm

JanD wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:10 pm RE: horses
Sorry, forgot to answer earlier. I once read a discussion between an efile creator and people who read about the topic of horses.
IIRC the baseline was that horses, as far as "war duty" was concerned, were very common in the ETO and very rare in the MTO. So yes, for Axis and Allies in the desert, you are remembering right: units were almost exclusive either on human feet or motorized.
But please don't remove horses from the desert: playing with slow and crappy units is lots of fun

No intention to completely remove desert horses, just reservations about making them more useful. For the moment (hotfix) I left them as they were (ie only useful it for self imposed core limitations). Since changes to the movement file do not seem to affect ongoing campaigns anyway.

For everyone not checking out the AAR forum, JanD posted a great replay AAR over there!
With FM + Rommel difficulty and custom equipment limitations!
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 5&t=108930


Thank you for all the detailed bug reports and your AAR!
I'll have to continue working on some aspects when I have the time for a full update (including the Ba.65 and the Re.2000).
For now this hotfix should deal with most of the reported issues:

2022-04a Hotfix Download: https://bit.ly/3rCd6r1
- Lots of inconsistencies dealt with (names, pictures, movement points, costs and so on), thanks to the reports by JanD
- Some initial "hotfix" adjustment for the lingering bombardment icons regarding the Sicily invasion, I will have to revisit that in the future

The link did not work...not sure the hot fix is set up right

goose_2 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:48 am The link did not work...not sure the hot fix is set up right

Hm, I double checked and everything is set up exactly the same as for all the older downloads.
Probably some algorithm malfunction on the bitly side. I asked them for the reason of this blocking, but so far no answer. Not sure I'll get one.

Until they resolve their issue, this is the direct link to the dropbox download:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9ko01ufligbcnc/Battlefield Europe v2.3 Locarnus 2022-04a.zip?dl=0