Slitherine

By the way.

You know in my current AAR I prevented Overlord by capturing Scotland. I did not get the Vs.

Seems that no Overlord also means no Vs. May be that could be finetuned. As long as London is in British hands the Vs should become available to get the possibility to generate some prestige for the Axis.

A few other small things:

The Italian AA gun that starts out by Rome, why is it not upgradable for transport?
The Romanian Vickers 75mm no transport available.
Why are the Italian battleships only ranged at 3? German and British (others?) cruisers are ranged at 4.

Spotting in inclement weather seems off sometimes as well.

Keep up the good work! I'm in 1943 currently, still moving back in on Moscow, Stalingrad, and Grozny.

I like the idea of false intelligence, although you might have to include something in the introduction stating that there can be false intelligence.

Re. Falshminjager, i feel there is very limited opportunity to exploit these anyway, as you only get 2 units and cannot purchase any more.

Thanks for the information about the V1's/2's. I just assumed that they appeared in early '44 for some reason. Btw, i have no moral problem about including them in the game. As you mention, carpet bombing of cities caused much more indiscriminate civilian casualties.

GeneralWerner wrote:As long as London is in British hands the Vs should become available to get the possibility to generate some prestige for the Axis.

Your opinion seems fair. But I think, this would throw off the really fine tuned balance at this point. Vs - if you can lunch them - brings an enormous number of prestige, so this would make the gameplay too easy. Plus, the RAF would bother more your invasion forces, it could not deal good enough to hinder the lunching of the Vs. Anyway, if you are already on English soil, than your war efforts are tending in good direction, so you don't need it. McGuba will write surely his points about it. As for the cause of the non-available Vs, I would say, because of the war is going good, the scare resources will be directed to other, in offensives more usable war material producing. And because the RAF and USAF is fighting more of your invasion forces, they get less attention to bomb the German cities, so there would be no high progaganda value of the retaliation. And finally, if London will be captured soon, why to make a overbombed-ruined-perfect defense area of it. Stalingrad has already teached a lesson (possibly ).

slowgtp wrote:A few other small things:
1., The Italian AA gun that starts out by Rome, why is it not upgradable for transport?
2., The Romanian Vickers 75mm no transport available.
3., Why are the Italian battleships only ranged at 3? German and British (others?) cruisers are ranged at 4.
4., Spotting in inclement weather seems off sometimes as well.

1-2., I think, it is set, because they meant as stationary air defenses. Maybe there would be also no native transport vehicle at the time for them at the given nation. But, why is this a problem? Remember: "Use the Train, Luke!"
3., Italian capital ships had no radar, which was a serious disadvantage. It is simulated in that way.
4., What do you exactly mean?

Anyway, about spotting issues, I also learned something new, after already countless hours spent for the v1.6 version:
- I thought somehow, that in deep dive mode, submarines are not visible, if no direct contact exists to neighborhood hex. But yes, they are visible, if they move.
- Mines have absolute no spotting: so even, if your unit is staying next to them, they will be not seen from the mines.

Tip: seeing, or not to be seen is a question of life and death in the game (in naval encounters absolute)! So, your recon units are really important assets as your eyes. On the counter, it is always useful to hide your units before the AI: what is not been seen cannot be attacked, and the possibility for a nice ambush is also there. Bad weather is also really good to use it for concealing your actions.

GeneralWerner wrote:By the way.

You know in my current AAR I prevented Overlord by capturing Scotland. I did not get the Vs.

Seems that no Overlord also means no Vs. May be that could be finetuned. As long as London is in British hands the Vs should become available to get the possibility to generate some prestige for the Axis.

Sure, but there is no AI zone for London only. And there are no more free AI zones left to do so. So as it stands it is either any of the English objectives or all of them. I chose any as normally a successful landing means the capture of all of England after some time and then there should be no V weapons. Or in some gameplays the first objective city can be London itself and then the player would get an award for launching rockets on his own city which is nonsense. So if the player can take and hold at least one objective in England D-day would not happen anyway and it is already a huge advantage.

And by the way Uhu had some good points against as well.

slowgtp wrote:A few other small things:

The Italian AA gun that starts out by Rome, why is it not upgradable for transport?

Historically those types of guns had no generic transports, they were used for the static defense of Rome and other cities. So in the mod they can be moved by train/ship to other cities or upgraded to a different gun.

The Romanian Vickers 75mm no transport available.

The same goes for these. These were used for the static air defense of the Romanian capital and the nearby oil refineries.

Why are the Italian battleships only ranged at 3? German and British (others?) cruisers are ranged at 4.

Italian warships had no radar, at least intially. Even later only had inferior ones:

The warships of the Regia Marina had a general reputation as being well-designed. Italian small attack craft lived up to expectations and were responsible for many successful actions in the Mediterranean. But some Italian cruiser classes were rather deficient in armour. Though Italian warships lacked radar, this was partly offset in fair weather by Italian optical rangefinder and fire-control systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regia_Marina

Though they were partly offset in fair weather they were in severe disadvantage at night or in fog. But these are not simulated in the game so they have a reduced spotting in general.

Spotting in inclement weather seems off sometimes as well.

I do not really understand what do you mean by this. Bad weather like rain or snow reduces spotting for all units. It is a basic feature of the game.

Keep up the good work! I'm in 1943 currently, still moving back in on Moscow, Stalingrad, and Grozny.

You too! Let us know about the result.

JimmyC wrote:I like the idea of false intelligence, although you might have to include something in the introduction stating that there can be false intelligence.

Yeah, sure, but it looks like some players do not read those anyway. And then just complain that this or that has not been told.

McGuba wrote:...Actually I was also thinking to add some false intel info...

Well, earlier, I found it too helpful these messages about the real actions of the Allies (since I play extra hard game modes, I complain no more about it, as all "official" help is welcomed. )
Giving false information would give maybe an extra immersion to the gameplay. But on the other hand, oppose to the Axis intelligence, we have now internet, Wikipedia and other sources, so If somebody is already interested about WW2 - who else would play PzC anyway?? - can look for possible Allied offensives. The only exceptions are the possible retake action of Greenland and the possible counter-offensive at the Middle-East.
On the other hand, there are anyway of massive scale of information each turn, which the player has to process. There are the real intelligence reports too, so maybe even more messages would be too much.

Thanks for the answers.

As far as the spotting goes, I'll have naval units in places where they cannot possibly seen (particularly in cloudy, rainy, or snowy weather) as I move in on an objective and the AI immediately moves to where it is and attacks them. For instance, before moving transports, I like to do destroyer sweeps for subs across any hexes that there could be a sub. Finding none and under the assumption that I'm under the Fog of War to allied surface units, I'll move my transports. I've had several instances where after numerous turns of sitting in one place attacking my ground units, they'll immediately move to and attack my naval units. I just haven't seen why this is, particularly when visibility is supposed to be off.

Sometimes forts and other structures have longer LOS than normal units. For example, Malta has vision range of 3 or 4 i believe. Also the radars in Britain have a fairly long LOS. Perhaps that is why they are spotting you?

Also, dont forget that Allied capital ships have LOS of 4, so they can see you before you see them (with your destroyers at least).

I feel your pain though - oftentimes i've had an Allied bomber fly directly over my vessel when I was sure that i was out of LOS of any Allied units.

Good points. Yes, radars have LOS 5 and also several aircraft (for example Hudson) have also LOS 3. Also, if you park your capital ships directly on the convoy routes, the Hive will alarm itself. On the other hand it can be simply a random guarding action too of the given unit. Still I also experienced, that for example Yugoslavian partisans, spawning from the hills came and attacked right in the same turn, as they would have anticipated, that my troops will be in the nearby town.

On the other hand, there are weird situations by the AI:
1., A unit comes/flies next to my unit and...do nothing! Not because it has fear to attack my unit, because it can happen in fighter vs. lonely bomber scene too. But also with land troops. As if the AI would be surprised, that there is a unit and therefore not attacking.
2., The absurd ambush effect, where the AI sees my unit, so even gameplay-technically it couldn't be ambushed, but still he is capable for it...

JimmyC wrote:Sometimes forts and other structures have longer LOS than normal units. For example, Malta has vision range of 3 or 4 i believe. Also the radars in Britain have a fairly long LOS. Perhaps that is why they are spotting you?

Also, dont forget that Allied capital ships have LOS of 4, so they can see you before you see them (with your destroyers at least).

I feel your pain though - oftentimes i've had an Allied bomber fly directly over my vessel when I was sure that i was out of LOS of any Allied units.

I am quite sure that the AI does cheat when it comes to spotting, if that's what you are thinking. Even though it is frustrating at times there is always an explanation why the AI attacks your supposedly "invisible" unit. Particularily in this mod a number of AI units are set to patrol a given area on a random basis. On many occasions these can bump into your hiding unit accidentaly and then attack it. Then you have a feeling that the AI was cheating and found your unit when it should not. When in fact it was just following its predetermined patrol route, which may or may not include random waypoints. The other explanation is what Uhu wrote: some allied units have longer spotting and these can spot your units even though you cannot even see them as your unit has shorter spotting. A third explanation can be an enemy unit which action is changed to attacker at any given time. Whenever it happens the given unit will start to move against your nearest victory objective and if it happens to find one of your units on the way it attacks it.

As for the submarines: sometimes they can only be spotted if there is a unit next to them. In some cases they cannot be spotted even though they are within the spotting range of a destroyer or an air unit. Then, as you move in with your transporters they can attack "out of nowhere". I think it makes sense as it was quite hard to detect a submerged submarine or its periscope and in most cases they could only be detected from a short range, well under the maximum detecting range of sonars, radars or human eyes.

All in all, in this mod always expect the unexpected.

In my second playthrough, I'm around turn 40 in mid-1943. I brought the entire German surface fleet, including Tirpitz and Hipper, as well as 5 destroyers, to full strength with the goal of sailing south and seizing Gibraltar and the Italian fleet and a few planes (bomber upgraded to P.108 and Folgore/w hero) steaming in from the east.

I rand headlong into Operation Torch, and completely annihilated it piecemeal. The huge combined American/British fleet pushed east and is camping around Malta, which I (along with Moscow) captured the previous year. I rushed my Italian aircraft (3 Folgores and the 2 SM.79s) and am just bombing the piss out of them.

Soviets launched a huge offensive into the Voronezh sector which took me months to crush, but caused significant damage. The minir axis forces performed brilliantly. I am at the door of Stalingrad and Grozny. Tblisi has been seized.

My fleets are a mess. I had 6 U-boat units sitting in the money hexes for a year and a half until they were all wiped out. I lost the Tirpitz and Admiral Scheer were lost in the action around Gibraltar. My subs (1 German, 1 Italian) are marauding around the straights. My airforce is upgraded and inflicting heavy damage.

Allied transports keep showing up and attacking North Africa. Why? I thought I obliterated the invasion?

Also, early in the campaign every time I play, I try to transport units from Europe to Africa, and regardless of where I am or what I do, they British get them every. time.

One final question regarding the Graf Zeppelin. Any air unit can be adjacent to it to rearm, or does it have to be on it? Thanks!

What are your stragies?

slowgtp wrote: One final question regarding the Graf Zeppelin. Any air unit can be adjacent to it to rearm, or does it have to be on it? Thanks!

In the regular game you have to be on top of it. I don't think anything has changed here.

- BNC

slowgtp wrote:In my second playthrough, I'm around turn 40 in mid-1943. I brought the entire German surface fleet, including Tirpitz and Hipper, as well as 5 destroyers, to full strength with the goal of sailing south and seizing Gibraltar and the Italian fleet and a few planes (bomber upgraded to P.108 and Folgore/w hero) steaming in from the east.

I never found the time to try and capture Gibraltar, although in my first playthrough i did destroy the defensive fleet around it (which took ages as i only attacked it from the west). Do you find its worth attacking?

slowgtp wrote:My fleets are a mess. I had 6 U-boat units sitting in the money hexes for a year and a half until they were all wiped out.

Yes, i also found that there is a period of calm lasting around 1 or 1.5 years and suddenly there is a massive influx of destroyers that really wipe out your subs around mid or late '43.

slowgtp wrote:What are your stragies?

Uhu has posted an excellent Battlefield Europe strategy guide on the main chat forum. It was written a while ago, butmost of it holds true http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... pe#p516919

Also GW and I have several AAR reports of our playthrough in the AAR section of the forum. By the way, what difficulty level are you playing on?

JimmyC wrote:

slowgtp wrote:In my second playthrough, I'm around turn 40 in mid-1943. I brought the entire German surface fleet, including Tirpitz and Hipper, as well as 5 destroyers, to full strength with the goal of sailing south and seizing Gibraltar and the Italian fleet and a few planes (bomber upgraded to P.108 and Folgore/w hero) steaming in from the east.

I never found the time to try and capture Gibraltar, although in my first playthrough i did destroy the defensive fleet around it (which took ages as i only attacked it from the west). Do you find its worth attacking?

slowgtp wrote:My fleets are a mess. I had 6 U-boat units sitting in the money hexes for a year and a half until they were all wiped out.

Yes, i also found that there is a period of calm lasting around 1 or 1.5 years and suddenly there is a massive influx of destroyers that really wipe out your subs around mid or late '43.

slowgtp wrote:What are your stragies?

Uhu has posted an excellent Battlefield Europe strategy guide on the main chat forum. It was written a while ago, butmost of it holds true http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... pe#p516919

Also GW and I have several AAR reports of our playthrough in the AAR section of the forum. By the way, what difficulty level are you playing on?

I'm playing on the General level. I brought down an infantry and Kradschutzen from France and landed in Morocco to counter the Allied landings. I destroyed the radar with my ships and renegade transports before retiring my fleet back to French ports, besides Prinz Eugen which was still full strength. I had my Fogore and P.108 bombard Gibraltar combined with the Italian fleet coming in from the east. I landed the German infantry on the Gibraltar airfield and in a few turns I captured Gibraltar. Prinz Eugen was damaged and is currently in Gibraltar while my Italian fleet and air force is heading back to Malta to deal with the Anglo-American naval force hanging around there.

I'm at the beginning of 1944, and the east is still in flux. Still heavy fighting around Grozny. Astrakhan has been taken, and I'm dealing with assaults at Saratov, Saransk, Stalingrad, and Moscow. Partisans are a giant pain in the ass, but the Soviets just won't quit.

slowgtp wrote:Partisans are a giant pain in the ass

They are really stubborn and won't let us in peace ( ) , but if you know their regions of activity, you can set up guards and they will mostly handle them alone.
Best units for that in Russia are the Romanian Reserves and Hungarian Security Inf divisions. Plus a few other units are needed: Pz I is the best, because it's cheap for the replacements for example. If you are interested, I can show you in pictures the main partisan regions and my guarding system.

I kept every Hungarian infantry around the Pripyat marshes, including Mogilev, Vitebsk, and Konotop. As far as the Balkans, the only units I move out are the Italian tank (upgrade and send to Africa), Alpini w/artillery (Send to Russia), and German infantry in Belgrade (to Russia). The rest I let stay put and they do well crushing the Partisans, particularly the Bulgarians. I replenish the Fallschirmjager on Crete, seize Cyprus (which is VERY useful in curbing the RAF in the region), and then return to Crete. I send the AA there to Africa (upgraded to 88mm), leave one Fallschirmjager on Crete to deal with possible Partisan uprisings, and drop the one near Belgrade.

Also, I move the infantry at Aalborg to Norway. French Resistance is very few and far between.

Regarding naval units, what do you all like to do? Dash through the Channel or go up and around? I like to go through the Channel and concentrate in the Bay of Biscay.

slowgtp wrote:Regarding naval units, what do you all like to do? Dash through the Channel or go up and around? I like to go through the Channel and concentrate in the Bay of Biscay.

It depends on your general strategy. If you intend to invade England you will need them for it, obviously. If not, you can concentrate them on either or both sides of the Channel and wait for D-day. Or invade Iceland. Or attack the convoy rouotes and grab some extra prestige (and face an inevitable Allied response). Or capture Gibraltar, as you did. There are many opotions, and its best use really depends on the general strategy.

Yes, I vote too for it, that it depends, what strategy you want to follow - or you play a fresh game, or a save-start.
1., If you want to invade England, than it is essential, that you sail your naval power to the french harbors, with the capital ships at least mostly (best way: fully) intact.
- Also you shall save 2-3 subs, because they will be also needed for it. The ones at the French site are enough.
- With the new mine types, you have to spare also the destroyers, because they are the ones, who can clear the mines and you will have to clear your way to the British beaches (besides the tac bombers, but with the strong Allied airpower it is lethal to let tac bombers in the visibility of US-British fighters).
- But because you cannot initiate an invasion earlier as 1942, it is useful to use this force to help the subs in the convoy battles. But beware: naval engagements are really unpredictable: while you think, that bad weather hide your ships from the enemy - suggested time for crossing the dangerous convoy zones to the south - but suddenly a lonely destroyer stumble in you capital ship and in the next minute you just see desperately, how the arriving brutal strong British capital ships make havoc from your little, loved shippy. So, if there is some opportunity in bad weather, than use it, but other way, grab the chance with the bad weather, make some moves with your subs to recon the way through south and smuggle your ships fast through to south.
Summary: if you want to invade England - and when do it, than do it fast, before the masses of US airforces arrive! - forget mostly the convoy battles, except a few subs and concentrate on the invasion.


2., Playing the Stalingrad or Kursk save-start
***Minor spoilers here***
There is the situation, that all of your naval forces are on the "east side", while you need them on the "west side". And you have not the time to travel in the relative save way to moving around the British isles. You have to take the dangerous way through the Chanel while also clearing a mine southeast of London! I just done it, so my experiences are fresh: again, time is the key - do not wait for bad weather, but take the risk and take your Fw190's and give air cover for the naval fleet sailing to the Chanel. Bring all 4 destroyers and 1-2 Me410 and clear that mine as fast as you can, than run with your ships to the west to the safety of not visible. From there, you can than decide, what you make with your naval force: use them to decimated the D-day transports - or initiate an invasion!! Sure, with the Kursk-save-start, there is no more chance to capture England, but with at least one major objectives at hand, the full D-day landing can be avoided! So, for me, even with some sacrifice and lot of investment, still it is more worth this option, as to engage a full force of Allied storm.

With the Stalingrad-save-start, there is a slight chance, that you can capture England and make even a MV. I'm already working on this one, hopefully I can bring some good news about the results.

McGuba wrote:

slowgtp wrote:Regarding naval units, what do you all like to do? Dash through the Channel or go up and around? I like to go through the Channel and concentrate in the Bay of Biscay.

It depends on your general strategy. If you intend to invade England you will need them for it, obviously. If not, you can concentrate them on either or both sides of the Channel and wait for D-day. Or invade Iceland. Or attack the convoy rouotes and grab some extra prestige (and face an inevitable Allied response). Or capture Gibraltar, as you did. There are many opotions, and its best use really depends on the general strategy.

Uhu, if we are here, if I remember well you were able to achieve an MV starting at the Kursk save? If so I would be happy if you could share your experience here: http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=69570 as GeneralWerner tried to do it as well twice, but could only achieve a draw, even though he tried really hard. I wonder how it is possible to make it if it is possible at all...