Slitherine

The cavalry tactics were what Olivier was planning with the Ayyubids but graham deployed in terrain and they agreed a draw,so the chances are a draw will be the most likely result
David

and what do you think about dismounting for a mongol army type to go in the rough to attack the roman ?

marco

marco wrote:and what do you think about dismounting for a mongol army type to go in the rough to attack the roman ?

marco

Not a good plan as the Romans are armoured swordsmen and have a POA at impact. Essentially the Romans are almost as good as the cavalry but cost half as many points.

madaxeman wrote:

ethan wrote:I have wondered about taking those types of Bedouins as Cv instead of LH to create some "swarm" tactics. Yes, protected Cv lancers are pretty vulnerable but if they have a numbers advantage and can get flanks...

Undrilled troops wont be able to get onto the flanks anywhere near as easily as drilled IMO (or IME).

And mounted cant hide in rough (or uneven) terrain to avoid knights either.

This would be Swarm(I)

Depends on the rest of the army. I probably should have elaborated. I view this as a possible addition to an otherwise "solid" army. Playing around with something like Later Crusaders who have a lot of solid, and expensive, line troops. A cheap Bedouin ally with some protected lancers might make a useful distraction on one flank.

I played Grahams army in the last game. Much of Si's analysis is correct - There are armies which can seriously trouble this army, but I don't think the type of armies that will trouble the Roman fare well in an open competition.

Graham plays the army very well, but you have to take into account the situation at the time - I was using Lydian, which in theory should do fairly well against the Romans, however, a 10-10 draw simply wasn't going to be good enough. I had opportunities which were risky, but as I needed a win, I took the gambles. In this game it didn't work, but that is not to say it couldn't if done again.

I lost a couple of BG's of LF on the flank because I failed about five CT's in a row, which in the end lost me the game, my spearmen did OK but are vulnerable to the sacrificed BG when they suddenly end up "double overlapped"

I don't think the army is unabalanced and it needs to be played well to win. There were several comments about the amount of difficult going I placed (i.e. five pieces), but they finished fairly badly for me, so I maintain my plan COULD have worked, it just didn't

Having said all that, I believe Hammy did the analysis to show that Graham hasn't been beaten at Britcon for at least seven years so....

davidandlynda wrote:The cavalry tactics were what Olivier was planning with the Ayyubids but graham deployed in terrain and they agreed a draw,so the chances are a draw will be the most likely result
David

They then played a game and Graham came out, he also told me that at the end he expected to lose in the next turn or so ...

They then played a game and Graham came out, he also told me that at the end he expected to lose in the next turn or so ..

Hmm, I would like but it was more a winninf draw for me than a victory... I've used my reserve and my left flank crumbled

IF we play three or four more turn ( may be an hour), I may crush his left flank and exploit my victory in the center but it was a close thing
I don't think that a shooty mounted army is good for taking this army type. I'll bet on an army with more punchy troops as Palmyre with his combo of Cat and Legion or may be a thracian or an hellenistic army with many cheap OF sp or HW.

Again let me start with ... of course I wasn't there and saw nothing ..... so excuse the speculation...

Question for you Olivier .......... as I would think this match up much in Ayyubids favour quite heavily and looking at the results Graham aremy played several armies that are ideal for it (good choice him) being pikes with narrow frontages. Of all army choices against him this was the only one that seems a - to me so I can understand his caution relative to other games (quite wise).

How does grahams army stand up to mass superior bowfire when you attack 2 areas so that the IC cannot affect both?

I would expect the one without the IC to crumble quite easily vs such firepower. If you are patient and put heavy firepower in 2 areas isn't it just a matter of time? Or do the Romans stay very compact to keep all close to the IC?

Even then if you go 2 deep at them can't you make them charge you or stand and take 3 dice per 2 frontage on 5s with re-rolls. On a rough test (rolled 50 sets) I get 2 hits 45% of the time and 3 hits 5% of the time. Even with an IC and rear support that thay have the -2 so a 5 or less will be a fail (which is 10/36). With 1 less its a 6 and 15/36 and with just a normal general an no rear support you would be up to 8s and 21/36 chance of fail. SPO I am guessing most test at the 15/36 chance.

So on straight shot about a 20% chance each time of DSR and even if they charge you then a) you will likely win anyway and b) you will break off and do it lal over again if you don't get them. Can't you pick your spots and shoot this thing up badly for 2 hours and then attack it late in the game?

In the combat you are at evens, but with re-rolls in your favour with the cavalry, so slight edge in winning and high odds of draws. However if you win then the -1 on CT for losing to Mtd in open really hurts MF average troops as they will be on at least 2-s. Must say I haven't found LTSp Arm MF too resilient to even Bw/Sw Sup Cv in the open.

Could you post or e-mail your army as I quite fancy trying them out gainst each other (siathedecroft@aol.com). Graham and Keiths design has a certain novelty to it for sure.

Si

How does grahams army stand up to mass superior bowfire when you attack 2 areas so that the IC cannot affect both?

It's Difficult to attack 2 areas at same times against this army!
Graham had LH who's pop up to take some shoot when some of the BG were hard pressed. On the line each BG are very close together and you can only more than 2 dices at the end of BL (one on them was protected by sup LH, the other by Sup Bowmen)
When I leave my Ghulam BG on one line, Graham hard pressed and was more than happy to charge them! When I'm in two rank, he move to split my fire against two BG and work my flank, leaving me with the only solution to charge early and hope to breackthrough quickly or fall back.

How does grahams army stand up to mass superior bowfire when you attack 2 areas so that the IC cannot affect both?

As I said , He stay very compact znd you split your firepower to low intensity. With two dice against one four armoured BG you have only 12% ( may be 16% with reroll) to force a test. With a rear support or an IC, he have more than 50% to pass it. Firing along the line werer pretty inneffective. My only hope ( and it's the way I playing this game was to DISR them in his turn and charge immediatly after!).

Even then if you go 2 deep at them can't you make them charge you or stand and take 3 dice per 2 frontage on 5s with re-rolls. On a rough test (rolled 50 sets) I get 2 hits 45% of the time and 3 hits 5% of the time. Even with an IC and rear support that thay have the -2 so a 5 or less will be a fail (which is 10/36). With 1 less its a 6 and 15/36 and with just a normal general an no rear support you would be up to 8s and 21/36 chance of fail. SPO I am guessing most test at the 15/36 chance.

Hmm, When I pass on two rank, Graham or Keith was more than happy to charge me! With 2 BG against one! And you have only one shoot against them because the shooting distance is the same as the charge distance! If I DISR them in the first shoot, he move 2 BG for splitting fire between them and gain a CT in the next JAP.

In the combat you are at evens, but with re-rolls in your favour with the cavalry, so slight edge in winning and high odds of draws. However if you win then the -1 on CT for losing to Mtd in open really hurts MF average troops as they will be on at least 2-s. Must say I haven't found LTSp Arm MF too resilient to even Bw/Sw Sup Cv in the open.

I'm OK and it's why I charged them as soon as I can but the difference wasn't so important and more than one time, I must fall back because they stayed STEADY or worse I was blocked by their DISR and in his turn flooded on the flank with support ; At 4 dice against 6 even with reroll you're doomed to lose. . (And No, I haven't enough BG to protect each of my flank )
My list below:

Interesting list of combined Bow and lancer armed Cav......Do you think if you could tailor it to fight Graham's army you would take more Bow Armed Cav instead of the lancers? I can see the problem of trying to shoot him for 2 hours, as it could be possible for him to pull the lancers out of formation....He can afford to trade BG's with you!

Ian

Drilled Lancer with an IC are difficult to put out of formation
And it's a very nice componant for the army giving it some punch.
For a army tailored against Graham, I'l put some CAT if I had some for a quick breackthrough not more shooter for a slow disintegration
But it's my french culture to ride to glory or death!

IMO against Graham & Keith's army the lancers are actually a bit of a liability as they may well charge without orders which is what G&H would like.

BTW I suspect an army like the Komnenan if made up of a good chunk of Superior Drilled Knights (no trouble in getting 12 bases of these in at 800 points), IC plus shooty cavalry could cause them real problems.

Thanks for the army list and the explanation of the GE dodgeball concept.

Interest to try it out and will do so at some point and then feel a bit more able to comment from bitter experience I imagine

Si

BTW I suspect an army like the Komnenan if made up of a good chunk of Superior Drilled Knights

I asked Graham how his army would deal with knights and he said that Knights are just fast spearmen. I.e. let the Knights charge (put the MF single rank deep) and then just manoever onto the flanks or let the Knights charge - this would then mean they have impact and one combat to break the BG or they get whacked in the flank.

It is a very well thought out army. Because Graham only plans on fighting to both front and flank then the enemy is always disordered and always at double minus - hence expensive, superior troops are simply not required.[/code]

Couple of things I dont understand here:

Dave - why did you put down lots of DGo to try and win big? Id have thought your spearmen wanted open ground, and the auxilai & LF would love as much rough going as possible?

Olivier - how can there be a situation where neither side thinks they have a chance of beating the other so they offer a draw? Was this due to the terrain?

Anyone - how on earth can an army work by "creating opportunities" for flank attacks? How do you do this?? Do you let small units rout and then hit the pursuers or something? I only managed to engineer my way to a couple of flank attacks at best all weekend .... and those were towards the end of the games. I was using undrilled troops, but does drilled really make so much difference ?

madaxeman wrote:Couple of things I dont understand here:

Anyone - how on earth can an army work by "creating opportunities" for flank attacks? How do you do this?? Do you let small units rout and then hit the pursuers or something? I only managed to engineer my way to a couple of flank attacks at best all weekend .... and those were towards the end of the games. I was using undrilled troops, but does drilled really make so much difference ?

This is where the 19Bgs kick in.. the swarm can either work you flanks as it has more BGs or can 'trade' Bgs in the center which when you pursue then allow the spare swarm BGs to hit the flanks as you pursue onwards.................

Bollox or not, I am still leaning towards this army generally being unbeatable in 3.5 hrs against anything other than an army designed solely to take it on................... and nothing anyone has wrote so far is doing anything other than convincing me more!

but hey, my swarm is half painted now, and theres another wave of MF from essex on the way to me now! though I wont be taking it to a tourney as people put too much time, money and brownie points into attending to play against armies that will only be beaten if I choose to let it be beaten!.............. gonna be good fun mucking about with it at home though!

jon

Drlilled makes a massive difference. They can get into position to threaten a flank, and therefore normally an interception charge in 1 movement phase. They move into the gap, turn 90 degrees, et voila. Any mounted shock troops must pass a cmt not to charge the Romans to its front, if it fails its charge is cancelled anyway by the interception charge to its flank. If it passes it can attempt another CMT to turn and move away, if drilled, if not it just has to sit and wait for the roman impact phase to be charged in flank, and possibly front, depending how impatient the driver is getting, next turn.

unbeatable in 3.5 hrs against anything other than an army designed solely to take it on

Its in a competiton based on just Legions Triumphant that it will have trouble. Lots of cheap HF/MF armies. These armies though won't be taken to an open competition. A couple or three of these armies are basically designed to fight it. But then, they did, so it makes sense.

Dave - why did you put down lots of DGo to try and win big? Id have thought your spearmen wanted open ground, and the auxilai & LF would love as much rough going as possible?

My Auxilia are largely rubbish (MF, Protected, Light Spear). Their main attribute is "Average", i.e. able to support the spearmen.

I put lots of difficult going down as I can have a maximum of 32 spearmen. This equates to 12 elements wide, which is only about 25% of the table. It is much easier to slow opponents down in Difficult Going than rough, I do have lots of LF, Javelin Light Spear, which is highly effective in Difficult Going.

With the difficult going put down I can also have a pretty good guess as to where my opponents Heavy Foot are going to be (i.e. that stuff my spearmen are especially good at killing) and hence allow me to the win the game. This worked bloody well against a Pike army I faced, although to be fair my opponents dice were so bad it wouldn't have matter what he was using.

The main problem I had against Graham is that only one lump of Difficult Going ended up in the middle of the table and none created a big enough "no go" area to significantly reduce the table size. There was also a particularly nasty lump which ended up on the edge on Grahams side which caused me a lot of problems (it was the compulsory bit and he threw a six to move it 12" onto his side )

Anyone - how on earth can an army work by "creating opportunities" for flank attacks? How do you do this?? Do you let small units rout and then hit the pursuers or something? I only managed to engineer my way to a couple of flank attacks at best all weekend .... and those were towards the end of the games. I was using undrilled troops, but does drilled really make so much difference ?

You can sacrifice a BG as you mention. The critical factor is that Drilled Medium Foot can move 4" and then turn 90 degrees. Graham had lots of BG's of 4 MF - they deploy in a single line or in a column and simply move 4" and then turn 90 degrees, hence putting them on the flank. Armoured MF are easily good enough to wipe out the supporting troops on the flanks.

As Phil has stated the problems for the Romans begin to occur when an army has no flanks.

I still think a spearwall (Greeks, or Rus would be even better) can beat "the swarm". More competitions will tell whether we have a true monster or not.