Slitherine

pgeerkens wrote:Here is a suggestion, which would be a combination of your 'light' army concepts with my 'balanced' army concept: Try replacing your last two auxilia with one Triari and one Legionary, specializing the Triari as anti-cav and the Legionary as anti-Inf. When I build these types they can usually get them to level 4 in one battle, allowing them to purchase Level 2 Weapons and Armor for their 2nd battle.
(Praetorians are awesome, though their price tag is intimidating, but I may try buying one instead of a Legionary for my next run through.)

Also, with all your archers, Aquae Sextae should be pretty straight-forwad - Have you figured out yet which heavy infantry is mis-targeted as the enemy general? Just target it with all your archers.

Yes, this looks like a really good idea. I think that I'll try the Praetorians. After all, it will be my one and only anti-inf heavy squad, so it's a reason enough to purchase the best unit possible. The Triarii... well, I should have taken much more care of the number of enemy horsemen during the last battles.

I haven't noticed it yet, it's some infantry in the centre. I like to make some experiences here, but maybe it's better to go for the instant kill. However, there's a problem that when you try this tactic, you MUST succeed, because you won't get another chance. If you concentrate in the enemy center and rush for the win, you really need to hit the real target, because otherwise the battle becomes messy and there will be lots of holes in your formation. There's yet another possibility and that's how I think you've meant it... I may keep the usual tactic and formation, cripple the incoming enemy and let the h2h squads take care of them, AND THEN allocate the Archers to shot down the central squads one after the other. If - and that's the question: if... - the h2h guys withstand the attacks without the Archers's support, then your tactic must be viable. Shame that the enemy has cavalry on both flanks. Without them, it'll be much more easy...

Another one bites the dust... and this time I was so close!
I have lost none but one battle. And I finally broke the 1 140 000 threshold... sort of.

Lo and behold!

So the final result after the final healing...

THE NIGH UNDEFEATED



Legate 59
Auxilia 25
Auxilia 28
Auxilia 22
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Archers 27
Auxiliary Archers 27
Auxiliary Archers 25
Triarii 18
Auxiliary Cavalry 29

Denarii: 2 665
Fame: 1 139 950
First loss: Battle of Zela (I was too slow.)


This is very flexible and powerful compostion, but I still dislike the Triarii. They are amazing against the Cavalry, but not so hot against any other squads. They gain experiences very slowly, and maybe it'll be better to use just one genral-purpose Legionaries instead of specialized Triarii.
I also realized that I got some troubles with opposing Elephants. I'd like to find some way how to destroy them, but without spending promotions on otherwise useless skills. Maybe it could be reasonable to encircle them with anything possible, and support those squads with javelinmen?
It also looks like I may use the core heavies only after the Gauls and Pyrrhos minicampaign, as those battles are bloody, namely the first one and then those with the aforementioned Pyrrhos himself. Would a tempo heavies be enough to stop the Gauls? After all, Triarii have done very little during the Siege of Arretium and it's much more reasonable to just lure the enemy heavies into the forest, than to stand against them in open field.

The skill tree looks solid. I went for the fast aggro skills with Auxilia (Swordsman, Feint), interrupted only by the needed stuff like Disc. Formations and the first level of Anti:Inf + Pro:Inf. Than on level 10 and 11 I took Endurance, level 12 and 13 Auxilias upgraded to Advanced Dodge (+10 agility without any sanction), then I gave one point to Feint, Swordsman, Endurance and Dodge until maxed. I went for the Advanced Anti:Inf and Pro:Inf, but this cost me a Grandmaster Swordsman (and thus the Achilles' Armour) with one of the Auxilia.
There's no point explaining the Archers' promotion, just that I didn't take the Expert Drill+ and went for the Pro:Inf.
Triarii were build as a wall. Endurance, Stand Firm, Block, Anti:Cav, Pro:Cav. They acquired the Sarissa.
Aux Cav was promoted as always... Fast Trample and Frenzy (and the needed skills, of course), then Endurance and Block. I gave them Expert Drill, so that they may roam free and easily overrun the routed. I gave them Honour Guard, just for the fun of it. They were the best equipped of my squads. All the elite stuff and level 7 swords and armour. (Other guys finished at level 5 as usual.)

Interestingly enough, I had very little problems with my army been too soft. Pincushion units may stop the onsalughts and then my Archers take care of the enemy. The only trouble is when the enemy breaks through the hole, just like happened to me at Claudine Forks. Archers don't withstand much in h2h.

I think I'll try another composition. Triarii are so so, I'm interested how the Legs will fare.

I give my auxilia simple anti-cav and anti-elephant each, and take on the elephants in rough terrain (preferred) or boggy ground (second choice) with auxilia and javelinmen. Once the archers are competent, I save the two javelners as anti-elephant, and let the archers chooses their own target mostly. I am thinking I should give the triari one or two anti-infantry once they get sarissa.

On my current run, I have just completed Aquae Seztae, with my triari already at level 18 and 575,885 experience (in purchase order, 12 core units):

Legate - 20
Auxilia - 20
Aux. Cav. - 20
Velites - 19 & 19
Auxilia - 20
Archer -18
Triari - 18
Archer - 16
Legionary - 14
Archer - 14
Aux. Cav. - 17

My belief is that Feint is a wasted skill in the second half of the campaign, as most opponents have too much armour. The instant kills seem to be more valuable, with Armour Penetration an alternate. Also, Feint is equivalent to buying Weapons early in the first 20 or 30 scenarios.

pgeerkens wrote:I give my auxilia simple anti-cav and anti-elephant each, and take on the elephants in rough terrain (preferred) or boggy ground (second choice) with auxilia and javelinmen. Once the archers are competent, I save the two javelners as anti-elephant, and let the archers chooses their own target mostly. I am thinking I should give the triari one or two anti-infantry once they get sarissa.

Sometimes it's not easy to force the dumbies into harsh terrain, namely in a time limit battles and when they start far away in the open. Good idea with Velites... and yes, I also tend to leave the Archers alone, with their high skills they are able to route infantry squad in three salvos.
When it comes to the Triarii (and the whole general purpose / specialized squad argument), I think that you're definitely at something. I noticed that while great against the Cav, Triarii's usefulness against infantry was abysmal. Simple Anti:Inf may be helpful.

pgeerkens wrote:My belief is that Feint is a wasted skill in the second half of the campaign, as most opponents have too much armour. The instant kills seem to be more valuable, with Armour Penetration an alternate. Also, Feint is equivalent to buying Weapons early in the first 20 or 30 scenarios.

Problem with this is that one just can't buy loads of weapons, because the gold flow is quite strict and 3x weapons of level 2 cost 450 Denarii, which is quite a lot, mainly at the beginning of the campaign.
The other thing is that I try to make a small changes in my builds, so that I may realize what exactly they do, if they're helpful in any significant way or not. But well, maybe I should be more courageous and try something bit more unusual.
Imho Feint is a useful skill, at least for the Auxilia, because during the whole campaign, they fight many light infantries with nigh zero armour. I think I'll try to combine the both in a way.

pgeerkens wrote: Legate - 20
Auxilia - 20
Aux. Cav. - 20
Velites - 19 & 19
Auxilia - 20
Archer -18
Triari - 18
Archer - 16
Legionary - 14
Archer - 14
Aux. Cav. - 17

I' very interested if the pretty soon bought heavy squad (Cavalry) will have any significant impact on the amount of fame lost to the necessary healing!

I'm trying a new build, and so far so good. Claudine Forks won 17 seconds before end, with no need to heal anyone. Pincushions were completely routed, of course, but the core units went to 47 resp. 46 (Auxilias( or finished untouched.

EDIT: So, I was stopped at Etruscan Treachery for the first time, and since then, everything went quite bad. Something's wrong with my build. And I already know what...

Just completed my most recent run: 1,146,350 XP;

Army composition at end (+ indicates gained a level at Phillippi):

• Legate -22

• Auxilia - 22+

• Aux Cav - 25+

• Velites - 22

• Velites - 20

• Auxilia - 22

• Archers - 23+

• Triari - 21

• Archers - 20

• Praetorian - 17

• Archers - 18

• Aux Cav - 22+

All battles after Aquae Sextae were without any non-pincushion casualties except:

• Vercellae - 30 XP healing

• Crossing the Alps - 80 XP healing

• A Small Victory - 90 XP healing

• Mulhouse - 20 XP healing

• Zela - 90 XP healing

• Africa - 155 XP healing

edit: total 465 XP healing for final 18 battles

All with no Odysseus' Bows, Achilles Armour, Teutonic Horses, or Ajax' Banner, as no units achieved the necessary conditions until Phillippi.

re: Aquae Sextae

Aleksandr wrote: Yes, this looks like a really good idea. I think that I'll try the Praetorians. After all, it will be my one and only anti-inf heavy squad, so it's a reason enough to purchase the best unit possible. The Triarii... well, I should have taken much more care of the number of enemy horsemen during the last battles.

I haven't noticed it yet, it's some infantry in the centre. I like to make some experiences here, but maybe it's better to go for the instant kill. However, there's a problem that when you try this tactic, you MUST succeed, because you won't get another chance. If you concentrate in the enemy center and rush for the win, you really need to hit the real target, because otherwise the battle becomes messy and there will be lots of holes in your formation. There's yet another possibility and that's how I think you've meant it... I may keep the usual tactic and formation, cripple the incoming enemy and let the h2h squads take care of them, AND THEN allocate the Archers to shot down the central squads one after the other. If - and that's the question: if... - the h2h guys withstand the attacks without the Archers's support, then your tactic must be viable. Shame that the enemy has cavalry on both flanks. Without them, it'll be much more easy...

I line up Triari on the left aligned just off-line right of the opposing cavalry, Legionary/Praetorian in the centre, and Auxilia (with a velite pin-cushion) in the rough. Archers line up between Triari and 2nd Heavy Inf, and Cav far left and slightly back of the Triari. Legate supporting the Triari at first. Cav will swing around opposing cavalry to take out javelins and archers, with archers targeting enemy heavies. Opposing enemy cavalry (on our right) can be suckered into the rough terrain with this line-up.

To make this work it is key to have 2 heavy inf: One anti-cav and one anti-inf. The Auxilia can take care of themselves in rough terrain (being mostly anti-inf with 1 or 2 levels of Anti-Cavalry Specialist), if the Velites absorb arrows long enough for the cav to take on the opposing archers.

Pieter

I actually don't go for the instant kill, as I want more experiencee than that provides; so archers target the fanatics first, then the enemy veterans.

re: your comments that Triari don't get experience fast enough: Do you line them up in Disciplined Offensive formation? They get a big boost in Melee Attack in this formation, plus an anti-trample bonus.

pgeerkens wrote:re: your comments that Triari don't get experience fast enough: Do you line them up in Disciplined Offensive formation? They get a big boost in Melee Attack in this formation, plus an anti-trample bonus.

I use this line up nearly never, I use Defensive one nigh exclusively. Maybe I should try it.

I only rarely use Defensive, except for pin-cushions which almost always use it.

Have you noticed that while the AI uses all the various formations, Fanatics always line up in Offensive? I believe that is becuse they are loaded up with anti-Inf and Anti-Cav skills.

pgeerkens wrote:Have you noticed that while the AI uses all the various formations, Fanatics always line up in Offensive? I believe that is becuse they are loaded up with anti-Inf and Anti-Cav skills.

Could be. Fact is that they can't have too many defensive skills, because Archers destroy them pretty fast.

re:

Aleksandr wrote:Problem with this is that one just can't buy loads of weapons, because the gold flow is quite strict and 3x weapons of level 2 cost 450 Denarii, which is quite a lot, mainly at the beginning of the campaign.
The other thing is that I try to make a small changes in my builds, so that I may realize what exactly they do, if they're helpful in any significant way or not. But well, maybe I should be more courageous and try something bit more unusual.
Imho Feint is a useful skill, at least for the Auxilia, because during the whole campaign, they fight many light infantries with nigh zero armour. I think I'll try to combine the both in a way.

No need to buy everything at once - in fact I believe it will slow experience gained. Level 1 Weapons & Armour I buy immediately Level 2 is gained, and just assume is a cost of all h-to-h units. By scenario # 20 I have generally picked up Level 2 Weapons, and load up with Level 2 Armour and/or Level 1 Helmet for Vadimo Lake. Then Level 1 Standard, Level 3 Weapons, Level 3 Armour, and finally the remaining toys once all core units are built.

Imho the Standard is unnecessary. You don't need morale when your men are not hurt. And that's why I buy high level of weapons and armour instead of standards.
Otoh, I finally decided to build the core a little bit slowly, so that I have less of the expensive healings.

Generaly yes, but I use Aux Cav and Heavy Infantry in some batles where the Standard 1 and 2 are needed; though usually only once they have Level 3 Armour and Weapons.In Claudine Forks, my Aux Cav does half the work, and it is important that they don't break, so I buy them Standard Level 1.

Edit: Scratch that; not Claudine Forks.

pgeerkens wrote:Generaly yes, but I use Aux Cav and Heavy Infantry in some batles where the Standard 1 and 2 are needed; though usually only once they have Level 3 Armour and Weapons.In Claudine Forks, my Aux Cav does half the work, and it is important that they don't break, so I buy them Standard Level 1.

Edit: Scratch that; not Claudine Forks.

Yes, this I do understand.