Slitherine

dave_r wrote:

NicktheLemming wrote:

dave_r wrote: I heard the comments from a fairly well respected veteran of the wargaming scene and Impetus is utterly broken.

We've been playing it quite a bit at the club for the last year or two, and it's been fine so far. What did he claim was broken about it, do you remember?

It was to do with Light Horse. As I remember it was to do with around five bases shooting or fighting one base with no reply.

Ah, that explains it clearly then. Definitely utterly broken ! All the people that have been playing it happly for the last few years must be completely wrong.

Why not not put the rule book on Lulu or some similar type and let people buy the book from there.

hood_mick wrote:Why not not put the rule book on Lulu or some similar type and let people buy the book from there.

Already suggested. If the future is electronic as Slitherine seems to think then everybody will buy the fancy app and make them the money they expect anyway. Those luddites who don't, like me, will be able to get a print copy with no risk of loss to them and a guaranteed profit margin. Having thought about things I guess what will happen is the one person who has an ipad in a group will get the app. He will then write out a QRS giving details of the changes which the rest of the group will tuck in their print rule books. So instead of selling multiple books with no possibility of loss and guaranteed profit Slitherine will sell one app.

NicktheLemming wrote:

NicktheLemming wrote:

dave_r wrote: We've been playing it quite a bit at the club for the last year or two, and it's been fine so far. What did he claim was broken about it, do you remember?

It was to do with Light Horse. As I remember it was to do with around five bases shooting or fighting one base with no reply.

Was he claiming that the game is broken because if you gang up 5 to 1, you're likely to wipe out your opponent?

Because that is not even close to broken.

No - it was the mechanics of how it happened, i.e. you could completely ignore the unit in front of you, switch your bases around so you always fired at the same unit rather than the unit that was otherwise directly in front of them.

I believe the actual quote was something like "Dave, even somebody who uses light horse like you do can see that this is just wrong"

Pricing is going to be around Tier 15 and Tier 10 for the main rules and books. A tier is around 65p or $1

dave_r wrote: No - it was the mechanics of how it happened, i.e. you could completely ignore the unit in front of you, switch your bases around so you always fired at the same unit rather than the unit that was otherwise directly in front of them.

I believe the actual quote was something like "Dave, even somebody who uses light horse like you do can see that this is just wrong"

You'll have to explain better, because in FoG (v1) light horse can do moves like this. I don't know Impetus, so your brief description isn't enough.

IainMcNeil wrote:Pricing is going to be around Tier 15 and Tier 10 for the main rules and books. A tier is around 65p or $1

Will it be a universal app or iPad only?

IainMcNeil wrote:Pricing is going to be around Tier 15 and Tier 10 for the main rules and books. A tier is around 65p or $1

Are you saying e-pricing is going to be around $US15 for the rules and $US10 per army list book? So someone like me who has the complete set of paper will have to repurchase everything digitally if I want a complete up to date set, even if the e-version of books only contains a few changed sentences regarding selected armies?

dave_r wrote:No - it was the mechanics of how it happened, i.e. you could completely ignore the unit in front of you, switch your bases around so you always fired at the same unit rather than the unit that was otherwise directly in front of them.

I believe the actual quote was something like "Dave, even somebody who uses light horse like you do can see that this is just wrong"

One of the problems I found with Impetus was the lack of manouevrability of the units. There is much less scope to do the sort of thing described here than in FOG or DBM.

I think it's best if we have this from the horses (Hammy I guess ?) mouth rather than second hand information, which may have lost something in the telling.

Polkovnik wrote:

dave_r wrote:No - it was the mechanics of how it happened, i.e. you could completely ignore the unit in front of you, switch your bases around so you always fired at the same unit rather than the unit that was otherwise directly in front of them.

I believe the actual quote was something like "Dave, even somebody who uses light horse like you do can see that this is just wrong"

One of the problems I found with Impetus was the lack of manouevrability of the units. There is much less scope to do the sort of thing described here than in FOG or DBM.

I think it's best if we have this from the horses (Hammy I guess ?) mouth rather than second hand information, which may have lost something in the telling.

What can "There were points about the rules that I thought were broken and having played a couple of games I can now confirm I was right" lose in the telling? If you like playing Impetus that's fine, but from what I've seen and heard it is not a competition set of rules.

That's what I liked about FoG in that upon release, the rules were bullett proof and didn't require numerous tweaks and fudges to fix things. Yet to find another game that is in a similar sort of development stage that I can play at a tournament level.

dave_r wrote: I heard the comments from a fairly well respected veteran of the wargaming scene and Impetus is utterly broken ...... It was to do with Light Horse.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Impetus with FoGAM 1.0 here ?

madaxeman wrote:

dave_r wrote: I heard the comments from a fairly well respected veteran of the wargaming scene and Impetus is utterly broken ...... It was to do with Light Horse.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Impetus with FoGAM 1.0 here ?

Ah. The whinging Southerner is back Anyway, will you be trying V2 Tim?

It seems that skirmishers and Drilled MF have had their manoever curtailed which was always your bugbear. Or are you going to stick with FoG(R)?

All this for nothing,

V2 is dead.
non printable is a bad desission, i will not play it.
i am an old rat, i still read paper books....
yes digital books excist, and yes someone will crack the book and put it online for free, even fog

dave_r wrote:

Polkovnik wrote:

dave_r wrote:No - it was the mechanics of how it happened, i.e. you could completely ignore the unit in front of you, switch your bases around so you always fired at the same unit rather than the unit that was otherwise directly in front of them.

I believe the actual quote was something like "Dave, even somebody who uses light horse like you do can see that this is just wrong"

One of the problems I found with Impetus was the lack of manouevrability of the units. There is much less scope to do the sort of thing described here than in FOG or DBM.

I think it's best if we have this from the horses (Hammy I guess ?) mouth rather than second hand information, which may have lost something in the telling.

What can "There were points about the rules that I thought were broken and having played a couple of games I can now confirm I was right" lose in the telling?

Well, given that what you've quoted sounds more like something that could happen in FOG than Impetus (and I can say that having played both games), I think it has lost something in the telling. Unless Hammy has got it completely wrong, which I very much doubt.

Polkovnik wrote

Dave wrote

Polkovnik wrote:I think it's best if we have this from the horses (Hammy I guess ?) mouth rather than second hand information, which may have lost something in the telling.

What can "There were points about the rules that I thought were broken and having played a couple of games I can now confirm I was right" lose in the telling?

Well, given that what you've quoted sounds more like something that could happen in FOG than Impetus (and I can say that having played both games), I think it has lost something in the telling. Unless Hammy has got it completely wrong, which I very much doubt.

No, it was single base movement which you can't do in FoG. The above is an actual quote. Just because you don't like what I say, doesn't mean to say it's lost something in the telling.

dave_r wrote:

Polkovnik wrote

Well, given that what you've quoted sounds more like something that could happen in FOG than Impetus (and I can say that having played both games), I think it has lost something in the telling. Unless Hammy has got it completely wrong, which I very much doubt.

No, it was single base movement which you can't do in FoG. The above is an actual quote. Just because you don't like what I say, doesn't mean to say it's lost something in the telling.

I was referring to your comment about the Light Horse, which was supposedly an explanation of how it is broken.

In Impetus, each Unit moves on its own just like it does in FOG. The main difference is that all units in Impetus are the same size, and cannot change formation. A unit of LH in FOG is much more manouevrable, as movement rates are higher in FOG compared to unit frontage, and in Impetus you cannot wheel and move straight forward at the same time, and cannot turn and move. So it is much easier for LH in FOG to gang up on a single opponent than it is in Impetus.

TimSnoddy wrote:

hood_mick wrote:Why not not put the rule book on Lulu or some similar type and let people buy the book from there.

Already suggested. If the future is electronic as Slitherine seems to think p.

There is little doubt that the future will be more electronic, but it won't be branded as Slitherine suggest. If it is on a PC then it can be read by a smartphone. The faintly ludicrous idea of 'regular updates to lists' - inspired either by GW or Microsoft/Apple will fade away. Either the new system will be accessible, or people can stay on v1 (failing that, I've got a copy of 7th edition and frankly, it plays much the same.

Can we please keep discussion of what I found wrong with Impetus off this thread.

I am more than happy to have a discussion off list with anyone who is interested. I would rather do it by e-mail. If you want to know what I think send me a PM and I will mail everyone who asks so that we can have a rational discussion.

As I said earlier if anyone wants a set of Impetus rules, mine are for sale. I simply loathe the game, it has no plus points other than a clever basing idea.

dave_r wrote:

madaxeman wrote:

dave_r wrote: I heard the comments from a fairly well respected veteran of the wargaming scene and Impetus is utterly broken ...... It was to do with Light Horse.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Impetus with FoGAM 1.0 here ?

Ah. The whinging Southerner is back Anyway, will you be trying V2 Tim?
It seems that skirmishers and Drilled MF have had their manoever curtailed which was always your bugbear. Or are you going to stick with FoG(R)?

I suspect that may be down to whether there is a printed version, or at least an update sheet made available.

Whilst I am quite intrigued by the business model and additional possibilities of a "live" ipad version of a ruleset, I don't own an ipad, there is only one person in my club I've seen use one for wargaming (and he's already posted in this thread to say he finds print versions far more useable and practical) and I just can't see a single one of the other current 16+ occasional FoG players at Central London either buying an ipad or bringing a laptop to the club just so they can play a slightly tweaked version one of the dozen or so other rulesets they also play.

So, even if I were to buy an ipad for V2.0, I'd be limited to, erm, one opponent. And lovely as both Simon's and my ancients armies are, I think it's fair to say that given the choice we'd both opt to play FoGR, BKC, CWC or Force on Force against each other over FoGAM anyway. That makes a non-hard-copy / update sheet FoGAM V2.0 into one heck of an expensive investment for a game I'd get to play against only one other person at the club, and would maybe use best 1 or 2 outings a year...

So, long winded way of saying, I might give it a go if there was to be an update sheet. But otherwise I think its still FoGR, plus and a more active search for other ancients rules that use the same basing conventions for me.

I think Slitherine may be jumping the gun a bit...

Digital is indeed the future, but does this hobby REALLY need several updates a year with respect to rules and army books? I would argue that changing the rules that frequently may be deleterious and potentially confusing.

FoG 2.0 needs to be printable - end of discussion. I have never lost a rulebook by leaving it around my table at a con. Am I going to leave my tablet lying around?!?! Will my tablet's batteries last? Did I remember to download the latest updates? This is rather rhetorical, as I do NOT own a tablet (I simply have NO need for one). Most wargamers I know and play with at cons do not own one, either. Having FoG 2.0 on my PC will not do me ANY good unless I can PRINT it! Water-marked non-platform specific PDFs are also an option.

Also, supporting only one device (iPad) even if it is only at launch is stunningly bad strategy.

Printing rules can be expensive, but that allows you to sell them at gaming stores, conventions, etc, where you would generate interest and players. Going digital would essentially KILL your advertisement and sales - wargaming is an old-fashioned hobby in many respects.

If for some insane reason you do not want the rules printable, then Print on Demand is THE go-to option - there are a number of successful services available.

It sounds like Osprey was willing to print FoG 2.0 in 2013 - why abandon the professionally printed route now? Simply update the army books with FAQs. Digital is certainly the future, but in THIS hobby, it still is *in* the future...

Cheers,

Ken