Slitherine

azrael86 wrote: Janissaries, who are a very tough opponent for anything that can catch them (heavy foot can't catch them, mounted knights and the best MF* are at best about 40% chance to win.

Jannissaries are undoubtedly tough...But I would give armoured Dailami a considerably better than 40% chance of winning, as will something like Legio Lanciarri.

Even less MF can do serious damage. Jannissaries that try to line up and fight say Catalan Almughavars straight up are unlikely to enjoy the experience.

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote: Janissaries, who are a very tough opponent for anything that can catch them (heavy foot can't catch them, mounted knights and the best MF* are at best about 40% chance to win.

Jannissaries are undoubtedly tough...But I would give armoured Dailami a considerably better than 40% chance of winning, as will something like Legio Lanciarri.

Even less MF can do serious damage. Jannissaries that try to line up and fight say Catalan Almughavars straight up are unlikely to enjoy the experience.

Spanish sword and buckler men
Thorakitai
Ancient British fanatics

I am sure there are plenty more MF that are more than hard enough to beat janissaries. Heck even your bog standard Dominate auxillia are a POA up in melee and the janissaries only shoot at them on a -

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote: Janissaries, who are a very tough opponent for anything that can catch them (heavy foot can't catch them, mounted knights and the best MF* are at best about 40% chance to win.

Jannissaries are undoubtedly tough...But I would give armoured Dailami a considerably better than 40% chance of winning, as will something like Legio Lanciarri.

Even less MF can do serious damage. Jannissaries that try to line up and fight say Catalan Almughavars straight up are unlikely to enjoy the experience.

Not only have I had my almughavars battered by Janissaries, because, yes I though we should beat them too, I've suffered similarly with superior HW foot (off hand I can remember if it was Medium or heavy, but it was Irish in some guise or other).

But you are kind of missing the point - Janissaries are the only thing you can ever catch unless you get lucky. Lancer cavalry won't beat Ghilman, Knights can't catch them, and the removal of rallying back means charging is likely to get you surrounded and killed piecemeal.

A lot of it is down to the distorting effect of superior bowfire. Not that long ago I fought an Ottomann, who massacred my (undrilled) longbow by shooting them to pieces: as superior, they reroll their hits and any test, as average, one bad test and the bow are history.

Lancer cavalry won't beat Ghilman

Interesting statement. The lancers are at + in impact, inflict a -1 on the CT if they win and are then evens in melee.

Sounds like a good fight to me.

azrael86 wrote:Not only have I had my almughavars battered by Janissaries, because, yes I though we should beat them too, I've suffered similarly with superior HW foot (off hand I can remember if it was Medium or heavy, but it was Irish in some guise or other).

Irish may well be pretty dicey in limited numbers against Jannissaries. Most Irish HW are unprotected which makes the shooting pretty brutal (3s to hit, re-roll 1s) and it means the impact is not that great (jannissaries get two dice at 5s with rear support at 4) and the melee is exactly even. The Irish are cheap so can bring huge numbers but in a straight up match that is tough.

I believe it was last year? that an Irish HW mob did well at Britcon but came unstuck against an Ottoman - which I think is expected. The Ottoman shooting and mounted are a tough proposition for the Irish.

azrael86 wrote:But you are kind of missing the point - Janissaries are the only thing you can ever catch unless you get lucky. Lancer cavalry won't beat Ghilman, Knights can't catch them, and the removal of rallying back means charging is likely to get you surrounded and killed piecemeal.

I think you can catch a bit more than that, though of course it depends on what you are using. Lancers cavalry are pretty tough on Ghilman, not like "one unit can take on 3 tough" but if you line up equal numbers of lancers and Ghilman I would bet on the lancers. In fact were I facing Ottomans I would rate something like Dailami or Dynastic Bedouin as one of the better choices for taking them out. Lancer cavalry, dailami infantry and lancer LH...

azrael86 wrote:A lot of it is down to the distorting effect of superior bowfire. Not that long ago I fought an Ottomann, who massacred my (undrilled) longbow by shooting them to pieces: as superior, they reroll their hits and any test, as average, one bad test and the bow are history.

The place where superior bows are too good is with Christian Nubians IMO rather than Jannissaries. It is true that Jannissaries will probably beat longbowmen, but whether or not that is historical is hard to say. That doesn't IMO mean that Ottomans will beat English, the longbows are pretty horrible if you are Ottoman cavalry and the HW guys are pretty hard on Jannissaries (where the negative POA for armor more than mitigates the re-roll of 1s).

The place where superior bows are too good is with Christian Nubians IMO rather than Jannissaries

Have you actually checked how good the Christian Nubians were?

dave_r wrote:

The place where superior bows are too good is with Christian Nubians IMO rather than Jannissaries

Have you actually checked how good the Christian Nubians were?

I meant in an effectiveness per AP sense, not in a "were they actually good archers sense." I think Jannissaries at 9AP a base are about right, while 6AP for a base on Nubians feels a bit light to me - especially in comparison to average archers at 5AP.

It was a response to the original posters "distorting effect of superior bowfire." Nubians probably are really good archers, which I have no problem with them as superior, they should IMO cost about 6.5AP a base instead of 6 though.

Fair enough, although I think that the biggest difference between the bowmen is the drilledness. Undrilled bowmen are a lot worse than drilled bowmen.

I think Jannissaries at 9AP a base are about right

Protected cost 10 AP.

But they are pretty good!

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote:A lot of it is down to the distorting effect of superior bowfire. Not that long ago I fought an Ottomann, who massacred my (undrilled) longbow by shooting them to pieces: as superior, they reroll their hits and any test, as average, one bad test and the bow are history.

The place where superior bows are too good is with Christian Nubians IMO rather than Jannissaries. It is true that Jannissaries will probably beat longbowmen, but whether or not that is historical is hard to say. That doesn't IMO mean that Ottomans will beat English, the longbows are pretty horrible if you are Ottoman cavalry and the HW guys are pretty hard on Jannissaries (where the negative POA for armor more than mitigates the re-roll of 1s).

It wasn't the janissaries, that would be fair enough, but it was the cav and LH who wiped out the longbow!

azrael86 wrote: It wasn't the janissaries, that would be fair enough, but it was the cav and LH who wiped out the longbow!

Longbows should be pretty happy to shoot it out with Cv...Hitting on 3s is worth about twice as much as re-rolling 1s.

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote: It wasn't the janissaries, that would be fair enough, but it was the cav and LH who wiped out the longbow!

Longbows should be pretty happy to shoot it out with Cv...Hitting on 3s is worth about twice as much as re-rolling 1s.

In theory, maybe. In practice it didn't work like that. Of course if the ghilman fail a test they bug out, if the bow fail they die horribly. My opponent didn't appear to be overly surprised at the outcome.

azrael86 wrote:

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote: It wasn't the janissaries, that would be fair enough, but it was the cav and LH who wiped out the longbow!

Longbows should be pretty happy to shoot it out with Cv...Hitting on 3s is worth about twice as much as re-rolling 1s.

In theory, maybe. In practice it didn't work like that. Of course if the ghilman fail a test they bug out, if the bow fail they die horribly. My opponent didn't appear to be overly surprised at the outcome.

How do the Ghilmen bug out? They can't turn 180 and move like Light Horse? They can turn 90, but that leaves them in a nice single column just asking to be shot to bits!

dave_r wrote:

azrael86 wrote:

ethan wrote: Longbows should be pretty happy to shoot it out with Cv...Hitting on 3s is worth about twice as much as re-rolling 1s.

In theory, maybe. In practice it didn't work like that. Of course if the ghilman fail a test they bug out, if the bow fail they die horribly. My opponent didn't appear to be overly surprised at the outcome.

How do the Ghilmen bug out? They can't turn 180 and move like Light Horse? They can turn 90, but that leaves them in a nice single column just asking to be shot to bits!

They turn 90, move and 5" with a wheel to hide behind LH. Or the LH come forward and expand. But since you get only 3 dice on them, you get average 2 hits, so they have well under 50% of failing anyway.

I shoudl point out I am not wall-to-wall longbow, I have some longbow - and that makes a BIG difference.

azrael86 wrote:
They turn 90, move and 5" with a wheel to hide behind LH. Or the LH come forward and expand. But since you get only 3 dice on them, you get average 2 hits, so they have well under 50% of failing anyway.

I shoudl point out I am not wall-to-wall longbow, I have some longbow - and that makes a BIG difference.

It is worth remembering that you can't move and expand. The allowable move is to expand then move.

If you are not wall to wall longbow then what other troops do you have?

ethan wrote:

azrael86 wrote:
They turn 90, move and 5" with a wheel to hide behind LH. Or the LH come forward and expand. But since you get only 3 dice on them, you get average 2 hits, so they have well under 50% of failing anyway.

I shoudl point out I am not wall-to-wall longbow, I have some longbow - and that makes a BIG difference.

It is worth remembering that you can't move and expand. The allowable move is to expand then move.

If you are not wall to wall longbow then what other troops do you have?

In this instance I was anglo-irish. 3 bgs LB, one drilled. The rest are 4 poor LF that are roadkill. 4 Galloglaich that can't catch anything unless the janissaries are prepared to play out of the rough. 2 Armoured superior cav that might be OK if anyone stood and fought it. 1 Light horse that is jav armed, 1 MF kerns that provide rear support.

Some armies will always find it harder against some armies, and easier against others.. a lot of fighting a battle is finding the army that suits you and how to cover the weaknesses of that army.

Cerberias wrote:Some armies will always find it harder against some armies, and easier against others.. a lot of fighting a battle is finding the army that suits you and how to cover the weaknesses of that army.

Very prosaic. So, pray, tell me the weaknesses of Later Ottomann Turk, then. Not 'it can't beat Swiss', what is it's bete noire? Because, if you follow this thread back, my point is that it is a heads I win, tails I don't lose army (especially without Serbs).

I have no problem with knowing that there are armies I can't fight: however it isn't a level playing field, because when an Ottomann draws an army it can't beat, it doesn't fight it at all. (I would continue but I would be infringing madaxeman's copyright).

azrael86 wrote: (I would continue but I would be infringing madaxeman's copyright).

I agree wholeheartedly

azrael86 wrote:

Cerberias wrote:Some armies will always find it harder against some armies, and easier against others.. a lot of fighting a battle is finding the army that suits you and how to cover the weaknesses of that army.

Very prosaic. So, pray, tell me the weaknesses of Later Ottomann Turk, then. Not 'it can't beat Swiss', what is it's bete noire? Because, if you follow this thread back, my point is that it is a heads I win, tails I don't lose army (especially without Serbs).

I have no problem with knowing that there are armies I can't fight: however it isn't a level playing field, because when an Ottomann draws an army it can't beat, it doesn't fight it at all. (I would continue but I would be infringing madaxeman's copyright).

Thats strange I managed to win against an Ottoman Turkish army on Monday night, who had elite Cav Bow/Sword and 3 BGs of Armoured cavalry and hordes of LH. I managed to evade of the table or destroy all his LH 7 in total and rout one Cavalry BG

I must admit I was playing the Khazers with Lancers and LH Bow/sword I did lose 3 BGs Lancers but thats what they are there for.

Against Ottomans you have to get in quick pin them back, and just go for it not a great plan but seems to work on average.