batesmotel wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:58 pm
...If you read Polybius' account of Raphia, Cynocephalae or Magnesia, and his general description of the phalanx, it seems closer to the original game version. Accounts of Alexander's battles seem much more like your interpretation....
On your advice I’ve gone back and read about those three battles once I had time to do so, but I’m not seeing that Raphia, Cynocephalae or Magnesia are supporting the narrative that the later pike phalanxes were the incredibly powerful steamrollers of the vanilla implementation.
1.
Magnesia
_____1. the two main sources for this battle appear to be Appian and Livy, not Polybius? Are there multiple battles of Magnesia involving pike phalanxes?
_____2. Roman ranged broke the Seleucid scythed chariots on the Seleucid left, who fled back through their own ranks and disrupted the camel cav, Galatians, Cappadocians, Cataphracts and Mercenary infantry on the Seleucid left, which Eumenes (Commander of the Pergamene allied forces of the Romans) exploited with a cav charge, breaking the Seleucid left and exposing the pike phalanx’s left flank.
_____3. On the Seleucid right, their elite silver shield/argyraspides pikes (veteran pikes in game I suppose? Or are these more like veteran hoplites?) engaged the Roman legions on the Roman left, and the Seleucid Cataphracts with Antiochus leading atacked the Latin infantry on the Roman left, breaking them.
__________1. Veteran Pikes still break normal legions in open frontal combat in the mod, and are in fact a lot less likely to be disrupted themselves at impact by impact foot than in vanilla. I find vanilla is actually more likely to result in the opposite scenario here, ie legions breaking pikes on impact, which basically doesn't happen in the mod because of impact POA loss against steady pikes (only against steady pikes).
_____4. In the middle the the Seleucid phalanx (in-game average pikes?) held its ground against Roman infantry, but suffered from ranged fire, and began to withdraw in an organized way when their elephants panicked from the same ranged fire, and the phalanxes broke their formation and ran. Antiochus on the Seleucid right couldn’t get around in time to rescue them.
__________1. This, again, seems to be represented well by the mod. Average pikes against legions hold out a long time but won’t win quickly, and are vulnerable if disrupted. This is unlike in vanilla where Average pike vs legion impact is highly likely to result in a disruption.
2.
Raphia
_____1. Most accounts seem to concentrate on the historically interesting elephant vs elephant combat of this battle (African elephants fleeing from Asian elephants), and there’s not that much info on the phalanx vs phalanx battle I can find. Antiochus’s cavalry and elephants on his right wing succeeded to such a degree that he pursued too far away to help his center in time, while his left wing failed.
_____2. The Pike phalanx vs Pike Phalanx battle in the center seems to be described as being uncertain for a time (“Meanwhile the phalanxes stripped of both their wings remained intact in the middle of the plain, swayed alternately by hope and fear”), until, Antiochus nowhere in sight, the Ptolemaic king (Ptolemy IV Philopator) showed up and inspired his own men by his presence.
__________1. It is mentioned that the Arab and Median Seleucid forces occupying the space immediately to the left of Seleucid pikes, were routed and left that pike flank exposed. Presumably, these Arabs were non-pike infantry? Perhaps the average quality, light-spear/sword heavy early Arab foot in-game represents these decently? Those Arab foot were driven off by Ptolemaic Greek mercenaries on the Ptolemaic right (hoplites? Or pikes?) which then exposed the Seleucid pike’s left flank. So, now with both flanks exposed, their commander nowhere in sight, and the Ptolemaic pikes bolstered by the presence of their commander, the Seleucid pikes began to waver and routed. I can’t find if their left flank was also compromised by the loss of the Arabs who were supposed to be protecting it, but presumably that would have at least been the ‘flank threat’ morale loss represented in game, if not an actual flank attack by those Greek mercenaries under Ptolemy. I can’t find an account that details what those Greek mercenaries did after the Arab Seleucid left fled, ie if they precipitated the collapse of the Seleucid pikes by flanking them, or merely imposed morale loss by leaving the Seleucid flank exposed. I’m not sure if there is another ancient account other than that of Polybius.
__________2. I didn’t though see any description of this phalanx vs phalanx combat as being particularly steamrollery? It seemed like it didn’t end until the wings had already wrapped up and the Seleucid phalanx was left with bare flanks. IE, again the pikes here were a pinning force while the rapid action happened between cavalry/ele on the wings. Also, the pike vs pike balance would not have changed in the mod because in both cases it is still a given unit vs itself. In vanilla, pike effectiveness degrades more with losses, and in the mod with disruptions/disorder, but again it’s balanced against itself wither way, although I think what the mod does is more accurate to the historical accounts. IE, you don’t see accounts like ‘and then the pikes, having suffered so many losses they couldn’t keep up their formation, broke and fled’ but instead accounts like ‘due to the loss of their commander, or presence of the enemy commander, or a flank attack or threat, or rough ground, the pikes were disordered/disrupted and thus vulnerable to the charge of non-pike units’. It is true that in the mod the infantry melee battle takes a few more turns, but that’s across the board in the mod, and again seems to result in more realistic outcomes where typically the infantry line is still around after the cavalry wings have been resolved.
3.
Cynocephalae
_____1. The pikes on Phillips right that stayed in formation, with an uphill advantage, pushed the Romans back, winning locally, but exposed their own flank in doing so, and eventually got charged in the rear and routed. So, they were on at least one wing pushing the legions back, but that seems to be in large part due to a significant uphill advantage. Having a +100 POA uphill advantage in game for the modded pikes results typically in the same effect.
_____2. Pikes on rough ground on the other wing couldn’t resist the Roman charge because they were disordered by terrain, and still in marching column, and so couldn’t get their formation steady in time. Non-steady pikes lose POA in the mod, and furthermore do not impose impact foot impact POA loss, and so this scenario seems well represented by the mod.
_____3. You’ll find in the mod that Pikes still handily beat Legions in frontal open combat with time. In fact, they are actually a bit better at that in the mod than in vanilla, because they impose significant degradation in impact foot impact POA, and thus the impact disruptions you rely on as Romans against Pikes in vanilla are not how you defeat them in the mod. With an uphill advantage they act like the pikes on Phillips right at Cynocephalae in the mod. Also in the mod, like at Cynocephalae, you need to get the pikes in the flank (relatively, pike flanks are more vulnerable in the mod than in vanilla) and/or on to rough ground (pikes in the mod lose poa from rough ground, not from losses like in vanilla). The vanilla game style hoping on impact disruption as Romans vs Pikes does not appear to be historical.
_____4. So, on the whole, the way pikes fought at Cynocephalae, with their unique strengths and weaknesses vis a vis legions, seems to be more accurately represented by the mod than by vanilla
The casualty reduction that slows down infantry combat in the mod is only done in melee btw, not on impact.
