Slitherine

Hi guys, it's nice that this discussion is going on!

When it comes to the anti -/- skills on infantry, I think that they work, just that the game doesn't show that. Maybe it's exactly as written above: it looks like that Slitherine forgot to add the icon.

When it comes to the Triarii/Praetorians argument - well, I need to experiment bit first, but imho the Praetorians should be better. They don't cost THAT much more, just some three hundred gold, which, ironically, is quite nothing when we're talking about later stages of campaign. But you'll get very versatile unit.
Otho Triarii have very high atitrample, and if you wish to use them as a primrily anti-cav squad, then yes, this should be very important.

I had some bad luck during my recent run, so abandoned+restarted it several times, so now I must take a rest from LA at least for a day or two. However these runs leraned me a lot about initial stages of campaign and about importance of good planning and proper units' managment. It's very important to not waste experiences and to play very tightly, so that the Scouting the Etruscans (and lately Aequi Riders and of course MiB) aren't too painful.
Although I lack the heavy cavalry, it really looks that one MUST use perma squads asap, because four or five scenarios of wasted experiences are exactly that: four or five scenarios of wasted experiences. (You can't reliably enter the Scout the Etruscans with just an Aux. Cav, as the enemy is capable of incapabling them...)

LEGION

(Very Hard)



Legate 64
Auxilia 27
Auxilia 28
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Archers 26
Legionary 23
Legionary 21
Legionary 22
Auxiliary Cavalry 28

Denarii: 1280
Fame: 1 131 335
First Loss: Men In Black or Lingering Gauls


It's official now - I can't use heavy infantry.

I decided to puchase only three Archers and it looks like this is not enough. The added support fire would be very helpfull.
All the h-2-h guys wore lots of stuff, however I decided to give them not only the usual level 5 swords and armour, but also boots and helmets of highest level possible. I also decided to buy an even higher level of stuff, but stopped at level 6 swords+armor for the three Legs.
Btw, it'll be interesting to read other people's opinion on Cavalry equipment. It cost the exact same amount as infantry stff, nonetheless you're giving it ot half a number of men, thus making it a very uneconomic purchase. Otoh, Cavalry makes good use of it, as they are fast; moreover they tend to work alone, and thic could be the reason why they need much better equipment.
Next time no stuff of level 6 and higher, because it eats too much gold, and one of my Auxies finished the cam without Achilles' Armour, which made them a sad sad panda.

I toally wasted some of the battles, I can't tell what's happening, but the Vadimo Lake, my usual nightmare was a walk in... well, not really walk in a park, but it wasn't nightmare either. However Cisalpine Gauls was a true massacre, I finished iwth two Archers and a crippled Auxies. And there was yet another one battle, where I've lost some 1500 Fame.

Skill tree was very conservative:
Legate started with the tactician's cycle, once all of them were Advanced, I gave him a little bit of swordsman's skills, then maxed the tactics, since then I was taking quite whatever. e.g. Honour Guard.
Hand to hand guys were given lectures in Swordsman, Feint, Endurance, then Drill and Anti Inf/Cav; on a first availability Legs took Expert Throwers and Auxies learned Disciplined Formations.
Archers took bull's eye skills whenever possible, when there was none archery skill available, I gave them Anti skills and Drill.
Cavalry: Swordsman, Feint, Trample, a little bit of Endurance, then Frenzy asap. Finished the cycle of sword skills, added a little bit of Drill, then Anti Inf/Cav skills, finished Drill, went on maxing the Anti.

I always thought that Auxiliary can have Frenzy, but no, they can't. Nevermind...

Legate wasn't awarded not even the smallest cap. It's just a waste of money. On the scenarios where I must not lose him, he just hides somewhere to completely avoid any harm. On other scenarios I never run him into the greatest danger, so there's no point to give him anything.
Btw, on my previous runs I always maxed the tactic skills first, but I realized that the gold flow is not that fast, so I don't have many units, thus I don't have a need for too much order points. By the end of the very first campaign my Legate is at level eight or something like that, so I hace enough order points for my two or three men. There's a nice synergy when using a small army - you don't need that many order points and you also gain Experiences pretty fast. I don't even care of Drill, I take it only when I must. Since my army grows to some six+ men, I start to take Drill more oftenly. I also give one Drill to the Cavs, so that I may overrun the routed guys with more ease.

I was quite surprised how this run finished. I'm below the usual results. Looks like the all-light units could be the way to go.

Ok, I'll give it one last try, but than I really need to take soem pause!

EDIT: Whenever possible I used Militia/Spearmint pin-cushins; the latter are extremely useful during Latin Dispute. However, I really start to think that one shouldn't overuse the pin cushins, as that little bit of experience that they ate away during each scenario, could be the reason for a little bit later Odd Bows. Further down the campaign I tried to not use them at all, and on a few occasions I didn't even deploy all of my core units.
When we're at it: of course, there are limited deploayent battles, where I even couldn't deploy all my men, but now I'm thinking of something else - to deliberately use a lesser number of squads, so that the Archers get the needed Exp.
E.g. at Pharsalus I've kept all three Legs at home, placed just the Auxies and Archers in the SE corner, where they completely annihilated the enemy Cavalry in the Rough. (And in the meanwhile my own Cavalry TDTed enemy western flank - loads of heavy inf., nom, nom experiences). This was very important, because the Archser shared much greater portion of the 250 necessary kills, moreover they were given a 1/7 instead of 1/10 or 1/11 (if pin cushion squad would have been used) of the after-scenario expo bonus. Bone us.

[pause]

Hi Possum,

I just saw a classic example of what I described above. Playing Ausculum, i had maneuvred some of my velites north of Phyrrus's heavy infantry, on the rough-terrain ridge, when time ran out. As the heavies routed throught the velites, a handful of horseshoes popped out. The velites had only one level of anti-infantry, but that garnered them another 5 heavy infantry kills.

pgeerkens wrote:Hi Possum,

I just saw a classic example of what I described above. Playing Ausculum, i had maneuvred some of my velites north of Phyrrus's heavy infantry, on the rough-terrain ridge, when time ran out. As the heavies routed throught the velites, a handful of horseshoes popped out. The velites had only one level of anti-infantry, but that garnered them another 5 heavy infantry kills.

That's very interesting information, seems like this could be a source for some additional experiences. Five kills in no that many, but multiply that by total number of battles...

Straight from my "Legion Arena walkthrough" thread:


AUXILIA

(Very Hard)



Legate 66
Auxilia 24
Auxilia 26
Auxilia 24
Auxilia 24
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxiliary Cavalry 32

Denarii: 1 215
Fame: 1 138 480
First loss: Aequi Riders, resp. Men in Black


I feel that this composition is very strong, but it has its flaws, too. First of all, I should be a little bit less meticulous when it comes to the core structure's design. It's nice to have sorted squads, but I should have bought the first Archers before the fourth Auxilia. They'd have the Odd Bow a bit sooner. The other thing is that the core was sometimes lacking a punch and/or wasn't big enough to fill all the holes. It looks like that one additional unit of each squads' type would be helpful. I also need to evaluate my thought on heavy cavalry, because after all the upgrades and promotion, the initial difeerences between the Nobles and the Auxiliary Cavalry is merged.

I need to be more meticulous when it comes to the battle command. I've spoiled some battles and thus I was once again unable to break the 1 140k threshold. And i also wasn't able to not lose a single scenario, although there are not many of them that pester me now. After all, I've already played the game for a few times.

It's a little pity that there are some annoying bugs that spoil the gameplay. Two of the hunt-for-the-general scenarios have an incorrectly set target squad, the other very bothersome thing is the disengagement or "go gaga" bug that happens sometimes.

A full report is available right here.

Ok, time for an official statement:

Etruscan Treachery is a joke.
kthxbye



EDIT:

So, another one bites the dust!

AUXILIA

(Very Hard)



Legate 59
Nobles 34
Auxilia 21
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxilia 21
Auxiliary Archers 27
Auxilia 21
Auxiliary Archers 26
Auxilia 21
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxilia 20
Auxiliary Archers 24


Denarii: 5 755
Fame: 1 134 195
First loss: Etruscan Treachery (for several times)


Hm... not worthy the time spent. It is by far the most successfull run when it come to the saved money, but the fame is quite low. It was also very painful to manage the army before battles, because you might notice that the units are not in packs.

Btw, the Nobles are not good enough, because they can't get good armour. I even start to think that the Scouts would be better. After all, there's no need to use heavy cavalry for archers hunt.
Also healing a heavy units since the very beginning is quite expensive - even though I've needed to heal them only after Aequi Riders.

One last thing: seen the levels and fame, I'd be very interested in one thing - what is the best number of units? So that the army has strength and speed, while simultaneously the healing doesn't cost much. I'm tempted to try a bit different build, because it looks like I've lost some fame due to the Auxilias' weakness in open, but well, knowing how hard it is to manage the heavies, I just can't decide.

I've got ideas for some new compositions:
1) Leg, Aux, Aux, Arch, Arch, Triarii, Triarii, Arch, Arch, Arch, Aux Cav (this could be good against cavalry, but more heavies mean more of expensive healing)
2) Leg, Aux, Aux, Aux, Arch, Aux, Arch, Arch, Arch, Aux Cav (very usual build, I'm not sure on it, this tends to be weak in third minicam - namely during MiB and Ling. Gauls)
3) Leg, Aux, Aux, Arch, Arch, Arch, Arch, Arch, Arch, Aux Cav (just three hand-to-hand squads may save many fame, but they may also lack punch; I'd use heavy pincushions when needed)

I definitely won't try them all, I'll thought out which one to try and see if I'll be in a mood for it...

Bye!

I've tried another all-light composition and was at Lautulae, but restarded the whole thing because of several reasons.

a) I really wish to make a "no-loss" run.
b) I've realized a very strange thing. Although it is nice how the light squads' healing cost nearly nothing, there could be far more of it due to the nature of light units. There are many maps where there is not enough rough terrain, and the last thing that forced me to try the heavies again, is the fact that it's quite hard to hold the Auxies in rough. Even if you march them into the water, they may move out and this cost me lots of fame. (And nearly a battle, too.)
c) All-light, small core armies may lack strength to finish the battles fast. A more robust army may be able to finish battles long before the enemy deals some serious damage.
d) If I decide to purchase some elite heavy squads (that are harder to destroy), it naturally means that I'll get them later in the campaign (Legionary squads costs 800 gold, Triarii and Praetorians even more), and I won't heal them that much, so this will balance the fact that I use heavies.

EDIT: I've made it through the Men In Black, Lingering Gauls and now even through the Etruscan Treachery!
Unless I'm mistaken, the next possible stop will be at Siege of Arretium... Time enough!

EDIT2: Grmpfh... So I was completely annihilated at Vadimo Lake.
I quite like my new composition, but it lacks something. Back to the drawing boards...

Messana... And I'm seriously pissed, because it was after the time limit and I needed just nine more suckers, but before the Archers shot the salvo, Legate had died.

EDIT:

Another one bites the dust!

NOT QUITE AUXILIA



(Very Hard)


Legate 57
Auxilia 23
Auxilia 24
Auxilia 22
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 25
Triarii 21
Auxiliary Archers 25
Auxiliary Archers 23
Auxiliary Cavalry 26
Auxiliary Cavalry 26

Denarii: 1 705
Fame: 1 132 340
First loss: Battle of Messana (I'm proceeding)


So, this run went as (un)expected. I knew that I'll lose fame if I use heavies, otoh, it wasn't that awful, at least I broke the 1 130k.

Btw, I spoiled some battles and my score would be much higher if not for those mistakes. It is not the best idea to use two Cavalry, as they need lots of healing, namely when you buy the heavies right during the Arretium, Vadimo Lake and similar massacres. They have melt like snow in the hot sun, it wasn't even funny.
But I was quite satisfied with the Triarii. I still can't make a final decision on their usefulness as anything else then cavalrystoppers, and maybe the Praetorians would be even better. They are much more flexible and what they lack in the anti-trample, may be solved by the two pila thrown. (But of course - it's nice to kill some four to five cavalrymen before they hit, yet first of all, you must have time to throw both pila before the cavalry hits, and moreover, you cannot similarly cripple the next wave. Triarii's anti-trample works against every cavalry attack, not only the first one.)

As you might notice, the bigger number of units used had an effect of far lesser average experiencies. It doesn't matter too much when talking about hand-to-hand squads, as their increased numbers increase their efficiency, but the problems arise in Archers department. None of them had an Odd Bow, and playing the latter stages of campaign without their help is very painful.

I also had very few heavy hitters, or better said - my core was too soft, not only in terms of light/heavy squads, but also with the emphasis to Archers, I had many problems when the enemy broke throguh and literally ate the Archers alive. Looks like I'd be better of without one of them, and... and what? Because:

Problem is that I wish to make an "ultimate run": with the best fame record and without a single battle replayed. But maybe it is impossible to achive both these goals at once, because you can't win 60+ battles in a row without big army, and you can't have a big army and not lose fame.

I also need to evaluate my thoughts on pincushion squads.

I'd start one last try and lets see what I'll end with.

If I should name one really annoying scenario, than Lingering Gauls would surely win the price.

Made a couple of mods to my army structure and training (and tactics), and topped my best again:
1,145,470 XP (Very hard) (GBOR played with Legion Arena data files)

Army (in purchase order):
Legate - 22
Auxilia - 23
Scouts - 25
Auxilia - 21
Velite - 22
Velite - 20
Archers - 25
Archers - 23
Triari - 20
Aux. Cav. - 26
Legionary - 17
Archers - 18

Aux. Cav just squeaked into level 26 on the final battle. Archers-I still a ways from Od. Bows. made extensive use of pincushions and diversions to break-up opposition plans.

pgeerkens wrote: 1,145,470 XP

For the longest time, I was pleased to get to the high 1,13X,xxx. Then I discovered the long-term benefits of anti- and protection-vs- skills. That when my totals jumped past the 1,140,xxx mark. Once they hit level 16 and get a Sarissa, my Triari can usually take out two or three enemy (heavy) cavalry with less than 4 losses (ie free).

In Zama, my Triari line up on the far right, and take out all of Hannibal's cavalry; provided I entice all of Hanibal's guard into the rough.

pgeerkens wrote:For the longest time, I was pleased to get to the high 1,13X,xxx. Then I discovered the long-term benefits of anti- and protection-vs- skills. That when my totals jumped past the 1,140,xxx mark. Once they hit level 16 and get a Sarissa, my Triari can usually take out two or three enemy (heavy) cavalry with less than 4 losses (ie free).

In Zama, my Triari line up on the far right, and take out all of Hannibal's cavalry; provided I entice all of Hanibal's guard into the rough.

Yes, I also started to experiment with the anti skills, but I have much less success. Seems like I need to restart the thing and try some new ideas!

Okay; here are my training cycles (skills listeed in preference order):

Auxilia: Disciplined Formnations / Anti-infantry / Swordsman / Protection-vs-Inf. / Anti-Cav. (to Advanced) / Dodge / Parry

Legionars: Expert Throwers / Anti-infantry / Swordsman / Protection-vs-Inf. / Missile Protection (basic only) / Armor Penetration

Cavalry: Trample / Swordsman / Anti-infantry / Protection-vs-Inf. / Missile Protection (basic only) / Drill (basic only) /

Triari (& Spearmen): Anti-Cav / Stand Firm / Swordsmen / Protection-vs-Cav. / Missile Protection (basic only)

Missilers: Skirmishers / Marksmen / Weakspot Targeting / Expert Throwers / Drill / Anti-Inf.

You may ask why I buy two velites who cannot get Od bows, instead of an extra archers; several reasons:
1) Two Velites throw twice as fast as one Archers, and carry same total combined missiles.
2) Two Velites with expert Drill earn 2 Order pts/second instead of 1.
3) They have less range, so only target enemies close by, which can save order points early on in battles. (That is to say, they don't waste ammo on inapproprite targets.)

pgeerkens wrote: 3) They have less range, so only target enemies close by, which can save order points early on in battles. (That is to say, they don't waste ammo on inapproprite targets.)

Genius I'm not...
True, true, that's good enough reason to use them. If only they wouldn't stop every time they run out of breath..
But otoh, although this is nice, I found the Archers' ability to cripple the enemy before they get into the range very helpful. Shame that the Velites don't withstand much in the h2h.

Continuation from my "Legion Arena won without a single battle lost" thread.

Foreword: I decided to try and win the whole Roman campaign without a single battle lost. The main idea behind this is twofold. First of all, it tells very much about the quality of the particular army build. Second... I wished to.

UNDEFEATED



(Very Hard)

Legate 68
Auxilia 25
Auxilia 30
Auxilia 23
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxiliary Archers 28
Triarii 18
Triarii 19
Auxiliary Cavalry 29

Denarii: 1 775
Fame: 1 131 175
First loss: Battle of Sambre River (I'm still proceeding.)


Although I wasn't able to defeat the enemy 100%, and I had to restart one of the battles, I still fared very well when it comes to ease of battles. But the score was not really great and I doubt that i can make any significantly amazing result with a core like this. There were far too many heavy units in my army.
As a sidenote, i need to tell that I was quite satisfied with my Triarii section, as they were extremely powerful when fighting the cavalry. But their slow experiences growth and their high price (that prevented me from buying Odd Bows fast enough) led me to an idea of abandonig the heavy infantry for good. After all, the score if crappy.
On the battles: Well, there's not much new to tell. Whenever necessary I bought the pincushion to absorb arrows and vex the enemy. Whenever possible I've kept unnecessary units at home (these ocassions were quite unusual) so that my Archers progress really fast.

Weapons, boots, helmets and armour: I've bought a highest level possible up to level five, as the levels over the fifth are too expensive. Archers wore (except for the obvius archers' things) just the lvl 1 boots and helms. Legate was given nothing.... as always. Elite stuff was distribute in a strange way, I totally forgot on the Odd Bows, so the Archers were awarded continuously, as my gold rose. The last Archers used their new toy not sooner than two battles after they reached level 26.
I was short of Denarii because of several things. First of all, Triarii are not really cheap. Second reason was that I bought Sarissa to both of them asap. This ain't bad per se, at least they seriously had no troubles with cavalry, but tbh, Odd Bow is more important. Another reason were all those unneeded boots/helmets.

It was nice run, but I think that my usual Auxilia army would fare even better. Next time... for the last time.

Boots are more useful to the Auxilia than to the Triari, because of their greater starting agility, so I would not buy them for Triari right away.

pgeerkens wrote:Boots are more useful to the Auxilia than to the Triari, because of their greater starting agility, so I would not buy them for Triari right away.

Yes, true, exactly... I can't tell why I've thought that a wasted 600 Gold will be the best trade of my life...

Another one bites the dust...

AUXILIA



Legate 62
Auxilia 28
Auxilia 24
Auxilia 25
Auxiliary Archers 27
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxiliary Archers 28
Auxilia 23
Auxilia 21
Auxiliary Cavalry 32

Denarii: 4 225
Fame: 1 136 660
First loss: A Small Victory (So it was more like a big defeat...?)


Very flexible composition, but...
First of all, I had none problems during the first 2/3 of game, absolutely none. However, once i got past this point, problems arose, as the army was too soft. The 5/3 split of Aux/Arch is nice because the army is capable in h2h in early scenarios, but during the latter battles, I lacked the softening factor of the additional arrow fire.
This was brilliantly seen in A Small Vicotry (at latest), because once I wasn't able to hold the fights in the river, my army crumbled. Nonetheless with a proper command, I won this one on my second try. But then I was stuck for twelve or so tries in the next battle (End of the Dream), where there is absolutely nowhere to hide. At the end I invented an SOS tactic of buying a pincushion elephant (8 animals per squad only, so it's a good purchase for limited losses scenario), ran them away, so that the enemy gets of my units, ordered my units to cross the battlefield upwards, where they hid in the forest, finishing the enemy just in time.
As I had several similar experiences (like finishing Aquae Sextiae two seconds before end of the time limit or ending one "low losses" battle with one last soldier left to die), I realized that I need to build something different. The all-auxilia armies are nice and I had the best results with them, but they lose punch towards the end of the campaign. IDK what to do. I don't like Triarii too much, although they're great against the horses. The other guys (Legionaries and Praetorians) are either too weak or too expensive.
Btw, I think I also spoiled the tree skill. Instead of Pro: Inf+Cav I should have bought just the Endurance.

Back to the drawing boards...

Here is a suggestion, which would be a combination of your 'light' army concepts with my 'balanced' army concept: Try replacing your last two auxilia with one Triari and one Legionary, specializing the Triari as anti-cav and the Legionary as anti-Inf. When I build these types they can usually get them to level 4 in one battle, allowing them to purchase Level 2 Weapons and Armor for their 2nd battle.
(Praetorians are awesome, though their price tag is intimidating, but I may try buying one instead of a Legionary for my next run through.)

Also, with all your archers, Aquae Sextae should be pretty straight-forwad - Have you figured out yet which heavy infantry is mis-targeted as the enemy general? Just target it with all your archers.