Slitherine

pippohispano wrote:

Aryaman wrote:There are other sieges with other sources that tell different stories about Portuguese performance, for instance in 1552 Piri Reis captured Muscat with just 850 men, and in 1622 a force of 5 armed merchants of the East Indian Company and 4.000 Persian infantry took Ormuz, defended by 1.000 Portuguese that surrendered after only a light resistance.
In all, I think we shouldn´t make Colonial Portuguese superior just because their self perceived superior performance in some battles

Oh, really???

So, because the Portuguese lost battles they shouldn’t be superior… I see...

Portuguese army probably was better than the FOGR list and of asian armies but HIMO not as good as superior grading will suggest.

In others list for this period there are few superior troop even in Europe , I don think that Portuguese army was better than other european counterpart (in that case Portuguese army had conquered europe and not brasil)

In fact, you'll have up to 3 Warriors Superior BG (this represents units with lots of fidalgos and veterans), and you'll also have up to 3 Warriors Poor BG (casados, topazes and freed slaves).

Most of the list will be Average though.

Would the same principles apply to the other colonial armies -- Spanish, Dutch, French, etc?

khurasan_miniatures wrote:Would the same principles apply to the other colonial armies -- Spanish, Dutch, French, etc?

Which principle?

pippohispano wrote:In fact, you'll have up to 3 Warriors Superior BG (this represents units with lots of fidalgos and veterans), and you'll also have up to 3 Warriors Poor BG (casados, topazes and freed slaves).

Most of the list will be Average though.

I agree with this

What about naval support for Portogallo (and Dutch) ?

pippohispano wrote:

khurasan_miniatures wrote:Would the same principles apply to the other colonial armies -- Spanish, Dutch, French, etc?

Which principle?

That some units of infantry veterans, etc, should be Superior.

MatteoPasi wrote:

pippohispano wrote:In fact, you'll have up to 3 Warriors Superior BG (this represents units with lots of fidalgos and veterans), and you'll also have up to 3 Warriors Poor BG (casados, topazes and freed slaves).

Most of the list will be Average though.

I agree with this

What about naval support for Portogallo (and Dutch) ?

Hey, I'm just doing the Colonial Portuguese lists, not the Dutch!

Yes, they will have Naval Support (obviously!). There are too many examples of NS to ignore it...

BTW, regarding the Dutch... According to eye witnesses, they should have a BG of Bandanese (Indonesian) mercenaries (used in Ceylon, armed with swords, and very, very tough guys, by the way!). Please note: I say mercenaries, not allies!
They could also have some Japanese mercs (in Macau, 1622), but perhaps these were too few to make a BG of their own.

And that's enough for the Dutch!

khurasan_miniatures wrote:

pippohispano wrote:

khurasan_miniatures wrote:Would the same principles apply to the other colonial armies -- Spanish, Dutch, French, etc?

Which principle?

That some units of infantry veterans, etc, should be Superior.

I don't know, I'm not making those lists.

But bear in mind that you are comparing, perhaps, totaly different lists.
For instance, I don't know if the VOC or WIC did have veteran units. They were contractors (nor necessarily veterans!), thet did their tour of duty and then returned home. The Portuguese, on the other hand, used to live there and settle, and so they were mustered everytime they were needed. There are many references, for instance, of veterans from India or Africa fighting in Brazil, etc.
The same goes for the English I guess.

As for the Spanish, I cannot tell you as I never investigated much on that subject.

Perhaps the FoG Team may answer your question.

I would think so, though, as I wouldn't imagine that the forces would be fundamentally different. I think for instance there are also accounts claiming that Conquistadores held off or defeated very large forces of locals.

khurasan_miniatures wrote:I would think so, though, as I wouldn't imagine that the forces would be fundamentally different. I think for instance there are also accounts claiming that Conquistadores held off or defeated very large forces of locals.

Oh, but that... I'm affraid that current knowledge on the subject tell us that they did it, yes, but not alone: they had their own local allies with them!
For instance, The History Channel has one documentary about the forensic analisys of some burial findings in Peru which showed that they were killed with guns, European spears and native blunt weapons, i.e., they were killed by a joint Spanish-Indian group. This happened in the defence of Cuzco in 1537.

Anyway, I suppose that a force armed with steel weapons, guns and horses has a clear advantage over an army equipped with stone weapons that even takes pauses when it's full moon...

Hi!

This is just to let you know that I've submited the proposed Colonial Portuguese list to the FoG Team for apprecition.

In a few days I'll disclose a little bit more of my work. Like I said earlier, this won't be an "über list" but I strongly believe that this proposed list not only respects historical accuracy but is also well balanced. Western European armies will be in advantage against these CP, wile Indian, Malayan and other Eastern armies will face more difficulties against it.

My thanks to João Especial, Miguel Mata and Vasco Madeira whose contribution to this work was priceless.

pippohispano wrote:Oh, but that... I'm affraid that current knowledge on the subject tell us that they did it, yes, but not alone: they had their own local allies with them!

Can't the same be said of the Portuguese?

khurasan_miniatures wrote:

pippohispano wrote:Oh, but that... I'm affraid that current knowledge on the subject tell us that they did it, yes, but not alone: they had their own local allies with them!

Can't the same be said of the Portuguese?

It depends. In many of the battles, the local auxiliaries were more of a nuisance than of any help; in some others, they were helpful; in others, they were indispensable, if nothing else, at least due to their numbers.

The proposed lists received a favourable preliminary review by RBS. There are some details that must be settled but in general terms it seems we have something that "looks very good".

So, start preparing your arquebusiers ans musketeers, and be ready to field some pikemen and cavalrymen as well for you'll need it!

pippohispano wrote:The proposed lists received a favourable preliminary review by RBS. There are some details that must be settled but in general terms it seems we have something that "looks very good".

So, start preparing your arquebusiers ans musketeers, and be ready to field some pikemen and cavalrymen as well for you'll need it!

I'd recommend that you avoid counting your chickens just yet. Regardless of Richard and I liking the look of what has been done that is no guarantee, or even an indicator, that anything will officially appear - that is wholly out of our hands and, alas, the powers that be are rather busy with other stuff at present.

I'd suggest keeping your fingers crossed, but not holding your breath - that way you might be pleasantly surprised and avoid disappointment

I'm not worried, it will come out.

nikgaukroger wrote:I'd suggest keeping your fingers crossed, but not holding your breath - that way you might be pleasantly surprised and avoid disappointment

Or at least fatal asphyxia.

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:I'd suggest keeping your fingers crossed, but not holding your breath - that way you might be pleasantly surprised and avoid disappointment

Or at least fatal asphyxia.

No worries, I'm confident that the FoG Team and Slitherine will do their best.

In a couple of days I'll post here some Portuguese flags of the 16th and 17th centuries. They were all compiled from contemporary sources, either writen or pictorial. I hope you'll like'em.

Pippohispano you stated "So, start preparing your arquebusiers ans musketeers, and be ready to field some pikemen and cavalrymen as well for you'll need it!"

Would the new Khurasan unarmored Spanish Cavalry fit the general look of the Portuges Cavalry?
Eu ja tenho os otros.