Slitherine

What about the Hindu South Indian 600-1049 AD list?

Here is the current version: (You can find it in the Time Warp Custom Battle module in FOG2 Medieval if you do not own FOG2 Ancients)

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 10:16 am What about the Hindu South Indian 600-1049 AD list?

Here is the current version: (You can find it in the Time Warp Custom Battle module in FOG2 Medieval if you do not own FOG2 Ancients)


Hindu South 600-1049 (current release version).jpg

The Medieval Hindu South Lists seem to be fine now.

As for this, the 600-1049 list, this would include the powerful Chalukya and Rashtrakuta empires, and the Chola empire farther south, all in their heyday, as such I would increase the number of Cavalry due larger funds compared to the later regional south Indian states, it is to be noted that Rashtrakutas (early 8th century to late 10th century) in particular scored some impressive victories against the Rajput Pratihara empire, especially when they sacked the Imperial capital of Kannauj in 915, at the height of Pratihara empire when it held sway from Punjab to Bengal while having vassalized the region of Kabul and Multan (As per the 10th century text Hudud ul Alam). Hudud ul Alam also tells us that the Pratiharas had an army of around 800 elephants and 150,000 cavalry, so we can be sure that the Rashtrakutas would've had a considerable number as well to face them in constant.

Additionally, I think Masudi (I'm not sure, could be another 10th century traveller) states that while the Pratiharas were known for their Cavalry, the Rashtrakutas, being amongst the Deccan ranges, relied on infantry, as such I would recommend increase in the Indian Close Fighters and Light Javelinmen, reflecting the recruits from the hilly regions.


6 Indian Lancers
10 Indian Light Horse
14 Indian Close Fighters
12 Indian Light Javelinmen

Thanks

Revised version:

Just checked the new patch, everything seems perfect. Thank you so much for your attention and patience throughout the process.

A few historical tidbits for further corroboration;

1. Regional South Indian Armies had massive numbers of infantry levies, for example Kakatiyas were said to have had some 100 elephants, 12000 cavalry, but over 200,000-600,000 infantry (I think the medieval sources cites 600,000).

2. As far as the exact armor of pre 1200 elite Indian troops, there have been some doubts as to whether it was mail or scale armor, I think the work of Lipika Maitra clarifies this question well, as she covers the terms for different types of armors in a text from the 12th century CE. Two terms in particular stand out, Jaalapraya and Jalika, literally meaning (iron) net. It seems by 12th century, Northern and Western Indian troops wore mail in considerable numbers. Older texts such as Kamandaka's Nitisara (post between 3rd to 7th century CE), having a significant section dealing with military matters, mentions Lohajala (mail), which literally means iron net. Kamandaka interestingly mentions mail for special troops such as the King's personal guards and eunuchs etc, indicating the relative rarity of it.I think these citations should suffice to clear any remaining doubts.

Here is also helpful small thread on some of the other types of Indian armors, from cotton made to mail coats and coifs.
https://suggestionbox.communityflavorpa ... rotections

Lastly, in case anyone wants to design battles or campaigns set in South Asia, please feel free to ask in this thread, since most battles are not covered or covered in any significant detail in most books, and since every region seems to have varied military traditions and troop composition, it makes the topic all the more complex.

Thanks

So recently I've come across some passages in texts such as Arthashastra (final version written probably around the 3rd-4th Century CE) and Manasollasa (12th Century CE from South India).

The texts talk about specific roles of armored infantry and emphasise the placing of these units. For example, Arthashastra states that in an infantry array the armored infantry should be in the centre with archers behind, and unarmored infantry on the wings. Similarly Manasollasa also gives account of strategically placing armored horse and infantry at key places in the formation.


I think in view of that there should be more armored Indian infantry represented in the Indian armies. As of now only Cavalry units are using armor with only Rajputs (1340-1500) having Indian Spearmen having some armor, representing the Purabiya Rajput troops.

I suggest that all Indian armies have Indian Spearmen in similar numbers to the Rajput Army (1340-1500), representing the elite infantry that ancient and medieval Indian states employed. Late Medieval Hindu South, not including Vijayanagar, should have fewer numbers though, only around 2-3 units, representing the extreme South's humidity.

PS:
Considering the Arthashatra gives us account of mail armor and quilted armor, historians deduce that post Mauryan Empire many authors added and amended the original text written by the Mauryan Prime Minister in the 3rd century BCE. I don't have the Field of Glory 2 for the Ancient period yet, but in case you want to add armored spearmen for ancient Indian armies, add them for Indian armies post 200 CE.

I've attached the images of Satvahana (Deccan) and the Kushan and Gupta (North Indian) era armored Indian Infantry, these are some of the examples of armored infantry.



In addition I've also added a Hoysala Hero Stone, what is interesting here is the use of Elephant Howdah and some sort of barding on the elephant. It is dated from the 12th century, so I would recommend adding an Elephant unit with Howdah in Hindu and Rajput Indian Armies as well, I think the same skin as the Indian Muslim elephants. However, I would add them in addition to the Default Indian Elephant unit since the friezes and the sculptures show both Elephants with barding and howdah, as well as without, probably the former were the Royal or Senior Commander's retinue, meanwhile the others were the ordinary elephant troops.

I would recommend that Howdah Elephants be made compulsory for South Indian Hindu Armies, representing the King or the General in place of the unarmored Elephant units, which can be optional. I would also suggest to make the upper limit of Howdah elephant in all Indian armies (Hindu, Muslim, Rajput) to be 4, representing the Commanders of the Van, Center, Left and the Right, the traditional division of Indian armies.

Only the South Indian armies should have compulsory elephants though.

Unfortunately we don't have an models for armoured Indian infantry.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 6:24 am Unfortunately we don't have an models for armoured Indian infantry.

I have two suggestions for that.

Indian Javelinmen skin is very good in fact for representing Indian armored infantry. It can pass off as the Sutraka armor, the quited armor which was very popular from the Satvahana period onwards (Post Maurya).
I propose switching it with the Indian Close Fighter skin, since both have a javelin and a sword with shield. It is far more appropriate for the Javelinmen to be less well armored. And considering the hit and run javelin tactics, they're bare chested look will represent the Atavika (Forest Tribals) forces as described in the texts.

Secondly, you can add the Indian Spearman unit as well. It does have a resemblance to the Mathura infantryman of North India, and furthermore, Banabhatta describes Emperor Harsha's infantry wearing jackets.

In the North Indian armies, we can have around 6-8 Indian spearmen, while in the South Indian armies these would be fewer, around 4, but the South Indian armies would have larger number of Close Fighters and Javelinmen (14 each, as I mentioned earlier, we have large numbers of infantry given in the contemporary accounts).

Indian Armies are represented to be divided in 3-4 categories (Arthashastra, Nitisara etc): the Maula/Mula forces (Hereditary forces, considered the best and usually paid in land), the Bhrita forces (Those paid in Wages or Mercenaries), Sreni forces (Military Guilds/Mercenary Companies, or Soldiers belonging to Trade Guilds, usually loaned to the State by these guilds), Mitra forces (Allied or feudatory forces), and finally the Atavika forces (Forest Tribes, considered unreliable).

Another kind of division was Bhata (regular) and Cata (irregular) forces as well.

So different kind of armors is quite necessary to represent the infantry as well to make the Indian armies resemble somehwat their historical counterparts.

I'm sorry for these late suggestions, but I posted them as in when I came across these new facts.

Thanks. I will look into this when time permits.

Thanks!

I've also checked some ancient Indian armies through the Time Warp feature.

I would again recommend replacing Indian Close Fighter skin with the Indian Javelinmen skin, since quilted armor was wide spread from at least the 3rd century CE onwards.

Here is a painting from the Ajanta caves dating 4th-6th century, these depict a typical Vakataka period army in the Deccan.
https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/im ... 1700492409

You can see most wearing white textile armor.


Secondly, I noted that the Medieval Indian Armies have Indian Light Horse (a Javelin Cavalry) wearing the same outfit as the Indian Javelinmen. Its armor is categorised as unprotected, and is the cheapest cavalry option for Medieval Indian armies.
In consquence of using the Indian Javelinmen skin for Indian Close Fighter to depict armored infantry, I suggest the following changes to the Indian Light Horse:

1. Rename it to Indian Mounted Javelinmen or Indian Javelin Cavalry, and give it the armor class of 'Protected', and increase its cost, perhaps same as Indian Lancers.

2. Add another unit, the Indian Cavalry from the Ancient Indian armies (specifically Indian Army from 320-545) as Indian Light Horse, and let it be the cheapest Indian Javelin Cavalry variant. Since the model is bare chested, the unit having no armor and being the cheapest javelin unit will be appropriate.

3. The two Javelin Cavalry units would represent the standard Indian cavalry, mounted on inferior country horses, unlike the better horses from North Western and Western India or abroad. These country horses were unsuited to charge, and thus were mainly were used for light cavalry duties. A Chola poem narrating the battle between the Cholas and the Orissa army states the use of Chola Cavalry in countering elephants by means of javelins and projectiles. Thus, both should be available in large numbers to all Indian armies, with North Indian and Rajput Armies having 10 of both the variants, while Vijayanagar armies should have around 6 of the armored variant and 8 of the unarmored variant, and lastly South Indians should have 4 armored variant and 6 unarmored variant. This is I hope would accurately depict the local cavalry situation historically.


PS: I've removed the Armored Cavalyman Sculpture as it was from the Vijayanagar period, not the Chola period, though the temple itself was from the Chola Period. As such I will only suggest to add 2-3 Superior Indian Lancers to all the Vijayanagar armies, and no other South Indian armies.

This post is in regard to the North Indian Armies from Post 200 CE, covering mostly Gupta, Pushyabhuti and Pratiharas.

Firstly, the Guptas (300-500 CE) need to have at least 6 Noble Lancers and around 8 Indian Lancers, and maybe 1 Chariots ( since these were only ceremonial by this period).

Similalry the Post Gupta North Indian Armies (600-800 CE armies) also need to have a very strong Cavalry contingent. They should have at least 8 Indian Lancers and 10 Indian Light Horse.

Reason being that during the Gupta and the Pushyabhuti empires, the supply of good warhorses from areas such as Aratta, Sindhu, Kamboja and Tangana were secured. We get an estimate of Emperor Harsha's army strength, both when he was a regional king, and after his elavation as the Emperor of North India. Chinese Traveller Hieun Tsang who visited Harsha's court, states that when Harsha was just the King of Sthaneswara, he had some 20,000 Cavalry, 5000 Elephants (Elephant figure seems exaggerated) and some 50,000 Infantry, once he conquered North India, he had come 100,000 Cavalry, and 60,000 Elephants (once again the elephant figure seems to be an exaggeration). It is to be noted that Harsha did not incorporate beyond the Indo Gangetic heartland.

Coming to the Infantry, armored infantry had become the norm from this period onwards. Banabhatta, Harsha's court poet, gives us a description of Harsha's army camp when he first had gained the audience of the Emperor. Most soldiers wore a jacket (Kancuka) and a helmet (Khola), meanwhile the nobility wore Kavaca armor, whether this Kavaca was a coat of mail or some other iron armor such as scale, it is unclear though.

Sources:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/essa ... 96398.html
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book ... e-t-128522

The above links are of an excellent site that has freely available excerpts from the translations of important texts such as Harsacarita, Arthashastra, Nitisara etc, that give us the description of arms and armor, as well as the military organization of the time.




Coming to the Rajput list (650 to 1050 CE), this would be representing the Pratihara Empire, I have already stated that the Arab and native accounts give us a fairly full picture of this empire. Hudud Al Alam (late 10th century) tell us that this empire had some 800 Elephants and 150,000 Cavalry, while Suleiman and Al Masudi, both of whom visited the empire in its heyday (mid 9th and early 10th century) give us pretty exaggerated figures, though the note that the empire had 4 great armies for the 4 directions, and that their armies were known to have large number of camels and horses, making it the finest cavalry force in India.

This army should have at least 6 Armoured Indian Lancers, apart from the Superior Indian Lancers, since by this time mail seems to have become common, especially in North India. Not to mention that unlike the Rajput Army from 1050 to 1350, this period saw a unified empire, not just regional states. As such I suggest at least 6 Armoured Indian Lancers, along with 10 Superior Indian Lancers, to be added.

The period from 200 CE to 1000 CE was the Age of Great Empires in North India, with the Guptas, Aulikaras, Maukharis, Pushyabhutis, Ayuddhas, Karkotas and finally the Pratiharas, as such this period should have very strong armies.





Lastly, this is probably a good example of the armor that the Elite North Indian Cavalrymen would wear between 200 CE to 700 CE, this is a coin of Emperor Samudragupta (d. 375 CE)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... taCoin.png

Thanks

Here are some barded Indian cavalry and elephants. These should be taken into consideration for the Rajput Army of 1050 and South Indian armies and Vijayanagar armies (Not applicable for South Indian armies contemporaneous to the Vijayanagar armies)

The pictures are from the 11th century Kiradu temple (Western India) and a 13th century Hoysala temple (South India)

11th century Armored Horseman from Western India (Rajput) 13th century Hoysala cavalryman from South India 11th century Armored Elephant followed by Armored Horsemen (Rajput) I think that if possible some barded cavalry and elephants should be added to the Indian roster. These naturally would be the elites. The position of the armored horsemen near the elephant in the 3rd picture makes me speculate that they were probably the elite retinue of the commander or the king who has been depicted atop the elephant, therefore their numbers would be very limited.

This is from a 13th century Hoysala temple. It seems by this time the number of barded horsemen had increased even in South India.

Thanks.

Some more photos

11th to 12th Kiradu temple, it seems by 11th century the number of heavy cavalry had increased. Same temple, a soldier in mail tunic with an interesting crooked sword, and female soldiers as well it seems More images of armored elephants and the manner of fighting in Kiradu temple. Various varieties of Howdahs were in use it seems.

Finally a Deccan Satavahana (3rd century BCE to early 2nd century CE) barded elephant with armored mahout for anicent Indian armies



Hopefully all this material will prove useful for the Indian army lists.

Question - on the Hoysala friezes and elsewhere, you often see what appear to be unarmored riders on barded horses. I assume it's an artistic convention to sometimes depict warriors without armor that they would normally wear in battle, as the Greeks sometimes did?