Slitherine

One option to consider might be awarding Honour Points, which you get for winning or losing a battle. The disadvantage is that it means more book-keeping for Gavin, and having organised various campaigns myself I know how tricky that can be.

On balance, I think stick to open battle and agricultural terrain and give the Defender a points bonus. And yes, make the game 'very large'. I am not against Attack and Defend, but it becomes a lottery in relation to the terrain for the defender. The problem with mountainous terrain is that the playing area becomes tiny and there is no room for cavalry - and I really enjoy playing with the cavalry in this game. But that's just a personal preference not a criticism of Dave's proposal.

Based upon Alan's suggestion and my original proposal for using mountain terrain.
Combine the two.

1. Make attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.
First phase involves two large armies with the initial encounter being the intercept by the defender's army of the invaders
in agriculture terrain.
2. If the defender loses then proceed to the siege of the fortress.
This will be an attack/defend battle in mountainous terrain to simulate the fortress effect for the defender. Cavalry cannot effectively be used for siege attacks.

Additional option: If the invasion proceeds to the siege attack, which would be declared the next turn, perhaps an ally army can attempt to come to the aide of the besieged defender by launching a relief attack into the Home province. This should not be assured and be subject to a random chance of happening.

These proposals should make attacking the Home Province a daunting prospect and not a relatively easy one, which it is now compared to standard battles in regular provinces.

lascar wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:05 pm Based upon Alan's suggestion and my original proposal for using mountain terrain.
Combine the two.

1. Make attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.
First phase involves two large armies with the initial encounter being the intercept by the defender's army of the invaders
in agriculture terrain.
2. If the defender loses then proceed to the siege of the fortress.
This will be an attack/defend battle in mountainous terrain to simulate the fortress effect for the defender. Cavalry cannot effectively be used for siege attacks.

Additional option: If the invasion proceeds to the siege attack, which would be declared the next turn, perhaps an ally army can attempt to come to the aide of the besieged defender by launching a relief attack into the Home province. This should not be assured and be subject to a random chance of happening.

These proposals should make attacking the Home Province a daunting prospect and not a relatively easy one, which it is now compared to standard battles in regular provinces.

I like your 2-part suggestion but without the additional option Dave. The prospect of a relief army is so daunting I doubt anyone would ever attempt it.

So, for the sake of continuing the campaign without further debate interfering with the flow of play...

Rule Amendment PROPOSAL to take effect from the conclusion of any current sieges :

Attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.

• First phase involves two large armies in agricultural terrain

If the defender loses then the siege of the fortress begins.

• This will be an attack/defend large battle in mountainous terrain

GDod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:24 am

lascar wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:05 pm Based upon Alan's suggestion and my original proposal for using mountain terrain.
Combine the two.

1. Make attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.
First phase involves two large armies with the initial encounter being the intercept by the defender's army of the invaders
in agriculture terrain.
2. If the defender loses then proceed to the siege of the fortress.
This will be an attack/defend battle in mountainous terrain to simulate the fortress effect for the defender. Cavalry cannot effectively be used for siege attacks.

Additional option: If the invasion proceeds to the siege attack, which would be declared the next turn, perhaps an ally army can attempt to come to the aide of the besieged defender by launching a relief attack into the Home province. This should not be assured and be subject to a random chance of happening.

These proposals should make attacking the Home Province a daunting prospect and not a relatively easy one, which it is now compared to standard battles in regular provinces.

I like your 2-part suggestion but without the additional option Dave. The prospect of a relief army is so daunting I doubt anyone would ever attempt it.

So, for the sake of continuing the campaign without further debate interfering with the flow of play...

Rule Amendment to take effect from the conclusion of any current sieges :

Attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.

• First phase involves two large armies in agricultural terrain

If the defender loses then the siege of the fortress begins.

• This will be an attack/defend very large battle in mountainous terrain

When you say very large battle for the siege battle are you referring to map size?

To clarify my concept: The initial battle would be large or very large to reflect the full scale commitment of both armies. If the Home province defender has lost that battle, they would be fighting with a diminished force, but having the advantage of a fortified position amplified by mountain terrain.

This would look like this: Using a attack/defend setup, so that the defender will have the fortification/obstacle structures on the field. Ideally, using a custom scenario setup: small map (to reflect that the locus of actions is around the castle/fortress), an attacker army with 2-3 times the points value as the defender army.

What do you think about those adjustments?

GDod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:24 am
2. If the defender loses then proceed to the siege of the fortress.
This will be an attack/defend battle in mountainous terrain to simulate the fortress effect for the defender. Cavalry cannot effectively be used for siege attacks.

Here is my 2c worth.

Large Map Size & Mountains is not the way to go as Lascar pointed out.Also the Mountains are only useable by Light Foot so 1/2 the map can't be accessed by most troops so it is possible that the Defender could sit behind Mountains and be untouchable except by Light Infantry.

My setup suggestion is :
Attack
Force - Small
Map -Narrow
Terrain- Hilly

GDod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:24 am
...

I like your 2-part suggestion but without the additional option Dave. The prospect of a relief army is so daunting I doubt anyone would ever attempt it.

So, for the sake of continuing the campaign without further debate interfering with the flow of play...

Rule Amendment PROPOSAL to take effect from the conclusion of any current sieges :

Attacking a Home province a two phase/battles process.

• First phase involves two large armies in agricultural terrain

If the defender loses then the siege of the fortress begins.

• This will be an attack/defend large battle in mountainous terrain

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
The consensus seems to be Phase one is OK. Phase two should be attack/defend, small force, narrow map, hilly terrain.

Is this satisfactory ?

Let's give it a try and see. Does somebody want to invade the Hojo home province?

ahuyton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:33 am Let's give it a try and see. Does somebody want to invade the Hojo home province?

Rule Amendment takes effect from the conclusion of any current sieges :

Attacking a Home province will be a two phase/battles process.

• First phase involves two large armies, wide map, agricultural terrain

If the defender loses then the siege of the fortress begins.

• This will be an attack/defend, small battle, narrow map, hilly terrain

I'll add the rule on the official map document soon...

P.S I'll give it a go Alan, as soon as I finish beating my head against Alex's walls!.

Final version of the proposal looks good to go.

lascar wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:58 am Final version of the proposal looks good to go.

Imagawa 51 has beaten Takeda 64. This was a great battle Alan, probably the most stressful but fun battle I've fought in SJ, thanks. It was back and forth during the whole battle with the opponents only one or two percentage points apart till the end. A relatively flat plain with a small forest on the left flank a a small marsh on the right. As both armies advanced banners waving, shouts could be heard from both Samurai and Ashigaru proclaiming their lord's superiority. The two armies clashed initially on my right flank and the center. Back and forth with much carnage on both sides. Suddenly the general on my right flank fell in a dual and it looked grim. My right flank collapsed and the Takeda contingents surged forward including their cavalry. The only thing in their way we're some units of Early Teppo in the swamp putting out a withering fire trying to desperately stop them. At this point my Samurai surged forward in the center and defeated the Takeda forces there, breaking through with little units left to oppose them. On my left flank the Takeda forces surged forward with infantry and cavalry and crushed my forces there including my cavalry...but there was a cost to this as a Takeda general fell in a dual, sputtering out with blood pouring from his wound "curse you Imagawa! We will have revenge! With a great deal of luck the Teppo on the right flank with the help of some Yumi Ashigaru shot to pieces the cavalry and infantry that had broken through there. In the center some Ashigaru raced forward towards the undefended Takeda Honjin assaulting his compound. The remaining Imagawa forces in the center wheeled around and attacked the Takeda right flank, effectively ending the battle. Bloody with many brave warriors lying dead in their own blood. Much honor gained and lost this day. Sagara province remains in Imagawa hands, but for how long? And does this put the task master Oda's plans for total dominance of Japan into jeopardy? Two more battle now raging will answer that question...

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:48 pm Imagawa 51 has beaten Takeda 64... Two more battle now raging will answer that question...

Map Update #18

Oda Nobunaga (KiwiWarlord) 26% beats Imagawa Ujizane (AlexDetrojan) 62%
and claims the Imagawa Province of Hatakeyama.

Oda outnumbered the Imagawa army, which was composed of many Superior troops, by 3000 + and managed to turn the Imagawa Left Flank and eventually, after many counter attacks, broke the Imagawa army.

Tough encounter and well played by Alex.
We all await the Ikko Ikki messenger from the Imagawa Home province

KiwiWarlord wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:40 am Oda Nobunaga (KiwiWarlord) 26% beats Imagawa Ujizane (AlexDetrojan) 62%
and claims the Imagawa Province of Hatakeyama...

Map Update #19 __________________________________________________________________________________________________________
14 Provinces needed to win

Well played Lord Oda(Brian). Out maneuvered and out fought. My advisors initially scoffed at the 'inferior' non samurai warriors. Their advice was to not worry so much about them and slaughter them with our superior samurai...well that didn't work out so well...my advisors heads now hang from the gate to my castle.

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:14 pm Well played Lord Oda(Brian). Out maneuvered and out fought.

Thank you for your praise Imagawa Ujizane, you will be most welcome in the Oda Shogunate.
I have your next campaign planned so get your Samurai to sharpen their Katana and your baggage train sorted.

Victory over the Imagawa

Imagawa Ujizane has submitted to the Ikko- Ikki onslaught of their Home Province and they have become retainers of the mighty, illustrious Oda clan under Oda Nobunaga.
The Imagawa prepared light fortifications before a mighty forest and sent their Teppo in to harass any Ikko-Ikki they encountered. What they found was 13000 Sohei monks and retainers surging forward around them without stopping. They fled from the forest in utter rout after being charged by a second line of Ikko-Ikki. The Imagawa behind their fortifications panicked and sent several units surging forward to intercept the pursuers...after initial success they ground to a halt and were swamped by the jubilant Ikko-Ikki followers. The battle ended quickly with the line breaking everywhere and the Imagawa Ujizane camp being looted and about to be burnt to the ground. Imagawa Ujizane was last seen prostrating himself in supplication before Rennyo the 8th of the Jōdo Shinshū Hongan-ji and swearing loyalty and support to the great Oda clan.
Of the Imagawa force of 27000 nearly six thousand were killed, wounded or captured. The Ikko-Ikki are proud to report only 494 of their faithful retainers were killed.

Map update #20 Situation as at 05.01.23

GDod wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:43 pm Victory over the Imagawa
The Oda Shogunate expands.png

Brilliant work by my strongest Retainer Rennyo the 8th Monshu bringing Imagawa Ujizane & the Imagawa Clan into the Oda Shogunate.
I have also had the Blessing of Jōdo Shinshū Hongan-ji sect of Buddhism on our Shogunate.
What more could a Shogun need ?

Oda Nobunaga delares Total War on Hojo Ujiyasu & the Hojo clan .

Oda Nobunaga will accept the challenge posted and will attack the Hojo Home Province.

ahuyton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:33 am Let's give it a try and see. Does somebody want to invade the Hojo home province?

My Honoured Retainers will Declare war on the Provinces

Ikko Ikki ( Gavin ) will invade Mori
Imagawa ( AlexDtrojan ) will invade Azai

ahuyton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:33 am Let's give it a try and see. Does somebody want to invade the Hojo home province?

Oda (KiwiWarlord) Declares War on Hojo's (ahuyton) Home Province
pw in PM