Fantasy Undead and basing ?

[Paint_In]

Hmm , I know ,

But nevertheless I would like to ask the following;

I have in my possession a large undead army based on 6x3 for Warmaster.
However since I am getting very interested in FoG I would like to rebase them for it.
I would still be able to play warmaster with them in civil war against my 8 year old son.
This way I can buy a Ottoman or Polish army or Medieval Army (to be used as adversary, but also to start something for FoG)

Most of the troop types are pretty straightforward as far is basing is concerned.
However 2 troop types are a bit of a dilemma:

Zombies either as Mobs (which seems appropriate) or Medium Foot
Skeleton foot either as Mobs / Medium foot (which seems to most appropriate) / Heavy foot

Altough I know I might be in THE DANGER ZONE with this subject I still would like to give it a shot.
So anybody interested in given their thoughts about this please do (I wont tell anybody you did).

René

[Keydet83]

If it works out, let me know...I might do the same thing with my WM Undead army...

[Seldon]

I would say either medium foot or heavy foot. But I wouldn't rebase, since you already have the 40mm front you can do just fine with a depth slightly different.
my 2 cents..

cheers,
seldon

[Rudy_Nelson]

For the Fantasy lists that I am toying with in my spare time, I am basing all Undead troops as Mobs. i am even considering Mob based archer and crossbow units.

Since they are co9ntroled and directed by a Sorcerer, their motivation is limited. Masses rather than formations seem logical.

[Seldon]

Well but when you look at the description for mob it refers to rabble, with poor weapons poor morale and poor training. I think they could be medium foot or heavy foot properly armed, specially skeletons.
Of course undead are always difficult since their morale and motivation is difficult to accomodate. Maybe the safest bet is to use cohesion as a reflection of loss of magical binding as the battle group deteriorates. You could also decide to use tham as defensive spearment ( if they have spears ) to show lack of motivation.

BTW, I know this is a set for historical rules, but I would have love to have seen fantasy rules with the quality of FOG and I will follow the same path as you guys and do my own home army lists

cheers
seldon

[Rudy_Nelson]

Well for me, the procedure will not be all that difficult. The Supreme Warlord rules that I did army lists for reverted to the old WRG5th system of weapons vs defensive armor. We used 4 and 6 stand units (or in FoG terms Battle groups).
So the conversion will not take that long, when I do get the time. I do not plan to use these as my gaming group no longer exists. I just enjoy making the lists.

In regaards to the Undead, if you are doing modifications for fantasy, why can you not make slight modifications to terms as long s the basic game mechanics are not altered. For example a Mob of poorly trained, poorly motivated but all Skeltons armed with bows or spears. Just a thought as a lot depends on your vision of what Undead creature are capable of doing. To me they are brainless with no will, so could they be rated anything Poor. The concept of the Undead is of a mass of creatures and not any in formation.

Though if you follow a specific mythos, then you could argue that they could be otherwise. An area wide open for discussion.

[eldiablito]

I love it! I have an orc army for Warmaster and was thinking of playing with them as Celts (primarily). I would have to make some adjustments for the giants (as elephants) and Trolls (perhaps as Elite, heavily armored, undrilled, heavy foot)... One thing to do is to make movement trays for your cavalry. Warmaster bases them on 20X40mm with the narrow edge forward. When I used my Warmaster models in HotT, I would base 2 chariors, wolf riders and boar riders together and play with them as a single stand.

Perhaps people could make a set of fan based list for fantasy armies; the magic would have to be VERY light and flying units might need to be scrapped altogether.

[Paint_In]

Hi guys,

So it seems that most of you seem to think Zombies = Hordes
Skeletons is still a bit a doubter but I think I will be going for the Medium Infantry since it conveys my idea of Zombies a bit more than Hordes (dont ask me why I have not found any written of other proof )

Rebasing will be necessary though since I have based them on 6x3 instead of the usual 4x2

René

[pezhetairoi]

Zombies, Mobs for sure! A shambling mass with no direction or organization.
No equipment, no armour and no chance of winning other than swarming less numerous opponents.

I'd go with skeletons as HF.
Slow, well-ordered puppets, of poor quality. Give them some sort of weapons (not swordsmen) and maybe "protected". Assume they are the bones of long dead obedient soldiers. Throw in some skeleton cavalry -- poor, unprotected/protected light spears/lancers (no swordsmen). Maybe other stuff, always poor. My image of skeletons is of fleshless soldiers standing in line as well as they did when they were alive -- perhaps even more obedient. I'd keep them undrilled for the slowness.

Make a special rule -- never fail cohesion tests , but automatically break when out of command range of a commander. (he'd have to rally them to get them back). However they always fail CMTs and cannot perform complex moves ever!
To defeat them, the opponent must autobreak them (they are all poor), or kill the commanders. A tough chore, but with some play testing might be possible. Perhaps no +2 to death rolls might help weaken them.

This sounds cool.

[willb]

will have to try that. sounds right for skeletons and zombies.

[shall]

Don't rebase them yet.

Play them in BGs of 6 bases for all the foot and the rules work fine

Si

[Brainsnaffler]

I like the idea personally. As mentioned previously, I would put Zombies as mobs.

However, looking at Skeletons, it's appropriate in a Jason and the Argonaughts kind of way to have the Skeletons as Med / Heavy Foot and why not give them swordsmen skill - they seemed pretty damn good on the film!

I like the idea of using mythical creatures. I saw a PS2 game recently called Spartan - Total Warrior (which was about as far removed from history as you can get BTW), and the romans used the Bronze living statue Talos in their army. That got me thinking about Gorgons, Minotaurs, hydras and the like - very cool!

[Paint_In]

However, looking at Skeletons, it's appropriate in a Jason and the Argonaughts kind of way to have the Skeletons as Med / Heavy Foot and why not give them swordsmen skill - they seemed pretty damn good on the film!

Well I have made up my mind for the basing:

Zombies as mobs
Skeletons as medium infantry since the figures have shield and some have helmets which seems to be apprpriate for medium infantry.
Some are fully armoured so will be put on Heavy foot basing.

Thanks for the input on Jason and Argaonauts.
This might even be a nicer period instead of the more Renaissance period I had in mind as far as opponents are concerned.

[Montagu]

Hehe, fun idea.

IMO, you could use any type of undead for any kind of foot type. Remember, foot type is a reflection of what type of fighting order they use. HF is close order, MF is loose and LF is open. (Don't know what the mob is. ) I guess you could say that a weak necromancer doesn't have the skill to control the undead enough to make HF but that is more your roleplaying it.

As for armor, I think the layer of flesh that the zombies have mitigates the damage they would take before the damage 'incapacitated' the zombie. A skeleton doesn't have this additional layering which is compensated by the armor and shield. Mummies have the rags, etc.

Have fun in whatever you decide

[DataBob]

Hoh Ho !

I think I sense an adaption of the rules coming on ! wait for it ............


FIELD OF GHOULIES

[philqw78]

The only problem I see with zombies being Mob is that they move very quickly, like MF. Depends what you want, old Dawn of the Dead slow stupid zombies, or new dawn of the Dead superfast zombies. Any way zombies should get a plus one on the death roll as you have to hit them in the head and no combat POA's as they are busier trying to eat brains not doing normal hits for casualties.

[DontFearDaReaper]

You guys are evil I tells ya!! Just when I convinced myself to put my WMF armies on Ebay you come up with a neat idea for keeping them.

[DontFearDaReaper]

Make a special rule -- never fail cohesion tests , but automatically break when out of command range of a commander. (he'd have to rally them to get them back). However they always fail CMTs and cannot perform complex moves ever! To defeat them, the opponent must autobreak them (they are all poor), or kill the commanders. A tough chore, but with some play testing might be possible. Perhaps no +2 to death rolls might help weaken them.

Another idea might be that if a necromancer joins an undead unit in melee he must fight from the front rank. If he is killed all undead units within 3" are destroyed.

Arrrgg, now I feel dirty. I must paint up some Swiss pikemen tonight to cleanse myself

[willb]

there is a yahoo group discussing fantasy rules for fog. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FoG_fantasy/

[OldenTired]

dunno if it's the same in other countries, but you can pick up LOTR figures for nothing on trade sites these days.

so a 25mm orc, dwarf, human etc fantasy army would be relatively cheap to put together.

2c in.