Worked example of large melee

[Assassin]

Hi,

Although the rulebook shows a basic melee example of one BG V another BG, which is really good, it would be helpful for me to see an example of multiple BGs hitting each other. We had a complicated one yesterday where three BGs of pike hit a couple of BGs of HF and struggled to see who one what.

Here is a rough idea what it looked like..

1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 ---- 1,2,3 = Heavy foot BGs facing down
E E P P P K K K K P P P ---- E = Elephants, P & K = Pike ( all facing up )

As you can see, it was not immediately straightforward as to who was fighting who and which BG had actually won or lost the combat.

A worked example along these lines would be very helpful to a lot of 'newbies' I'm sure.

Thanks - Darren

[carlos]

Long explanation, short - allocate hits per file while you are rolling the dice. Then add them all up for each BG both for hits taken and hits inflicted. So to determine if E lost, i.e. if it takes a CT and a death roll w/ no bonus, then just tally up how many hits they inflicted (just E) on 1 and how many hits 1 inflicted on them. For 1, add how many hits they inflicted on E and P and how many they were hit with. Yes, it's possible that 1 both loses against E and beats P for example.

This is all so much easier when you get stands on the table, believe me!

[neilhammond]

Another quick reply.

The easiest way to work it out is to resolve the combats a base at a time. You don't get a "factor" for the unit, you get a POA score per element. So, for example, in 111 the first 2 bases may be on a different POA vs EE compared to the third base vs P.

Both sides roll the appropriate number of dice (usually 2) a base at a time. Place the dice scored behind the base just rolled for (this gives you a "record" for the overall combat). Keep going until all bases have rolled. Leave the dice for all previous combats in place (it's handy to have lots of dice for this reason).

Then, for each BG in the melee you ask the question: did the BG inflict more hits than it received? If it imflicted more in total than it received in total (irrespective of the number of units it was fighting) then it won. If the same it drew. Therefore no CT, but if you got more than 2 hits you need to roll a death roll. If it received more than it inflicted (irrespective of the number of units it fought) then the BG has lost. Roll a CT and a death roll.

So, it's possible for 2 opposing offset units to both lose the melee, and both fail a CT.

Neil

[shall]

Adn another

What we do is break the line every time the BGs chnage on either side. So

1 1 - 1 1 - 2 - 2 2 2 - -3 - 3 3 3 ---- 1,2,3 = Heavy foot BGs facing down
E E - P P - P - K K K - K - P P P ---- E = Elephants, P & K = Pike ( all facing up )

Then every little block is a mini-fight. Roll hits and put them behind the mini-block.

Then remember that winning a combat doesn't matter - it has no effect. It whether you lose one that matters, and by how much. So add up for each BG the hits recevied and caused and see if you lost or not - i.e. looking at it from each BGs own perspective. If you lost take a CT and Death roll. If not then take a Death roll if you suffered 3 or more hits.

C'est voila. Very easy if you follow that approach once you have done 2 or 3. Note that given the above you can work the answer out for the El after the first mini-roll as it is thonly one it is engaged in. The 1s after the 2nd, the first Ps after the 3rd etc. But usually I prefer to get the whole set of hits done and on the table and then work along. I often use measuring sticks to show the breaks on the table if it gets very big.

Hope that helps. I might create an example of this and post it on the forum later in the week.

Si

Si

[BrianC]

So per the rules and your post, regardless of what BG's you are fighting all you do is total the number of hits you caused the enemy (regardless of which enemy BGs) and compare it with the number of hits your BG received. If the hits your BG received are more than your BG gave to the enemy, then you lost the melee and must do cohesion and potentially death rolls. You do this for each BG along the line for both sides.

As you say winning is not important, its all in the losing. I did not get this concept until just now reading your post, then diving back into the rules. Our last game we finally got into multiple melees and our heads hurt after the first one LOL. But this should clear it up.

Thanks again Si, I think I see the light now : )

Brian

BTW the reference is on page 98, 2nd para.

[Assassin]

Thanks all for the input. This makes everything much clearer. We have been doing it a little wrong as it seemed to us strange that a BG can both win and lose a combat, but having seen the explanations above it makes much more sense.

[hammy]

Just wait till you get a combat where both sides lose

It is possible, you need both sides to have overlaps from a different BG on opposite flanks but if the overlaps inflict the hits both engaged BGs can end up 'losing' which is ammusing if rather unusual.

[nikgaukroger]

I've found it happens more often that I expected - overlaps can often be the cause in my experience.

[shall]

Yep but no different as long as you stick to the I didn't lose, don't care how much I win by mentality .....

Si

[nikgaukroger]

Yup.

It just takes a game or two to get used to the "who lost" approach to resolving melee rather than "who won". Once you internalise that you're OK

[BrianC]

It just hit me reading the last few posts. In our games we always comment on who won the melee not who lost. Its interesting in how you can turn it around and in future we will declare the loser rather than the winner. Can't wait for my next game now : )

Brian

[ethan]

The only problem that the base by base method throws up is when one side is losing 1 dice per 3.

[marshalney2000]

Ethan, losing one base per 3 or 2 for that matter is still not an issue as you calculate for the whole battle group before allocating dice to fight in each file combat.
John

[ethan]

Ethan, losing one base per 3 or 2 for that matter is still not an issue as you calculate for the whole battle group before allocating dice to fight in each file combat.
John

I understand that. But you can't break the combat down to just file v file and have that form you sole basis of understanding combat because of the 1 per 3 issues.

[hammy]

Ethan, losing one base per 3 or 2 for that matter is still not an issue as you calculate for the whole battle group before allocating dice to fight in each file combat.
John

You do need to be aware of disruption etc. before you start rolling hits. It gets embarasing if you roll 4 dice for one combat then realise you have only 2 bases left and you forgot you were disrupted.

When things get complex a good way to proceed is to work out the dice per BG and allocate them to all the combats before you start rolling. Then roll the dice and discard the misses. I normally leave my hits on my side of the combat and ask my opponent to do the same. When all the fights involving a BG have been rolled for you can take the required cohesion tests and death rolls.

If I can find time I will do a nice blow by blow explanation of a complex melee with photos.

[BrianC]

Just to make sure I have this. If you have a 4 base BG and lose 1 dice per 3 bases you would then have 3 dice to throw? So you then get to choose before you throw the dice which files or front bases will get 1 dice and which one will fight with 2 dice? Or if you are in a line then 1 file will not be able to roll. This could mean that in a line you could have bases that may take hits but not cause any.

If you have a BG of 8 and lose 1 die per 2 bases then the BG will fight with 4 dice, again, regardless of which files are fighting who, you allocate the dice in such a way that each file gets at least 1 die if possible. But overall its up to the owning player to allocate dice.

You use the BG to determine the dice to throw but allocate them based on bases not BG's, is the above correct?

Thanks

Brian

[rbodleyscott]

Just to make sure I have this. If you have a 4 base BG and lose 1 dice per 3 bases you would then have 3 dice to throw? So you then get to choose before you throw the dice which files or front bases will get 1 dice and which one will fight with 2 dice? Or if you are in a line then 1 file will not be able to roll. This could mean that in a line you could have bases that may take hits but not cause any.

If you have a BG of 8 and lose 1 die per 2 bases then the BG will fight with 4 dice, again, regardless of which files are fighting who, you allocate the dice in such a way that each file gets at least 1 die if possible. But overall its up to the owning player to allocate dice.

You use the BG to determine the dice to throw but allocate them based on bases not BG's, is the above correct?

Actually you allocate them on the basis of the enemy BGs you are fighting.

Thus for example, say a BG of 6 bases, 2 deep, is fighting 2 enemy BGs, one with 2 of its files, the other with 1.

If it is disrupted it must lose 2 of its dice.

It has 4 bases fighting one enemy BG (A) and 2 bases fighting the other (B).

Clearly it has at least 3 bases fighting A so must lose at least 1 dice against A.

Of its remaining 3 bases, the majority are fighting B, so the other dice is lost against B.

Therefore it ends up with 3 dice vs A and 1 dice vs B.

[BrianC]

Very elegant, thanks for expanding on the procedure with an example. Will have to do some solo meleeing later.

Brian