Cavalry charges intercepts and couter charges

[pugsville]

Can a unit charging a unit be both intercept charged and counter charged?

simple case no wheels, a cavalry units is lined up so all units moving straight forward will go into contact, Unit A charges unit B, B counter charges straight forward, C adjacent to B intercept charges B straight ahead. Is this right?

Do intercept charges cancel counter charges by original target?

Can the original target of a charge intercept charge rather than counter charge?

[richafricanus]

Because the charge stops at the point of contact, unless your intercept and counter charges ended exactly lined up, the chargers would stop at the first unit. If this is the counter chargers, then the intercept is invalid? If it's the interpceptor, then surely the countercharge is invalid?

[pugsville]

simple case the units 8mu are perfectly aligned, directly aligned, if this is possible then I'll ask questions about the more prosaic cases with angles and stuff,

[KeefM]

I would say that's correct. Further than 8MU apart makes it unlikely though. However, given that countercharges are half the distance between the two units and that intercept charges are up to 4MU that means that having both an intercept(s) AND a counter-charge is much easier to arrange when the charge starts closer than 8MU away.

[deadtorius]

Can a unit charging a unit be both intercept charged and counter charged?

Simple answer is no.
A successful intercept cancels a charge and the original target does not make any outcome moves or take any kind of cohesion test a charge would normally trigger.

Sequence of play:
Declare charges
Declare intercepts
Move interceptors
targets of charges not intercepted make outcome moves etc.

[pugsville]

case (a)
cavalry unit A is directly sqaure and 8 mu from cavalry units B and C
cavalry unit A charges unit B, C intercepts, if B can no longer counter charge can it now intercept ?


case (b)

cavalry unit A is directly sqaure and 4 mu from infantry unit B and 8mu from cavalry unit C
unit A charges unit B, C intercept charges 4 Mu now perfectly level with infantry unit B

does unit B test or fight? or do Legal intercept moves must stop the charger from contacting the original target?


case (c)

a unit of cavalry is charged by two cavalry units frontally (just) but a ong way left and right, counter charging either will make contact by the other charge impossible. Do cavalry charged by two units have the choice of who to counter charge, and charges that will not contact as counter charges have moved out of range be cancelled?

[deadtorius]

case (a)
cavalry unit A is directly sqaure and 8 mu from cavalry units B and C
cavalry unit A charges unit B, C intercepts, if B can no longer counter charge can it now intercept ?

No you can not. A unit that has a charge declared against it can not intercept.
Phasing player declares all charges including a charge against your cav unit. They are now the target of a charge, so can only react to that charge.
You declare all intercepts, your cav is still the target of that charge.
You move your interceptors and then the charging units make their charge moves. Only successful intercepts will cancel a charge.

cavalry unit A is directly sqaure and 4 mu from infantry unit B and 8mu from cavalry unit C
unit A charges unit B, C intercept charges 4 Mu now perfectly level with infantry unit B

does unit B test or fight? or do Legal intercept moves must stop the charger from contacting the original target?

A successful intercept stops the charging unit from making contact with its target. The charge is cancelled the target unit does not take any cohesion tests or reaction moves, like forming square in this case I assume, so the square would not be in contact and would not fight.
IF the charging cavalry contacts the square and the interceptors at the same time it is not a legal intercept so the intercepting unit would return to its starting point and the intercept would be cancelled.

case (c)

a unit of cavalry is charged by two cavalry units frontally (just) but a ong way left and right, counter charging either will make contact by the other charge impossible. Do cavalry charged by two units have the choice of who to counter charge, and charges that will not contact as counter charges have moved out of range be cancelled?

I believe in this case you can choose which unit to countercharge.
To declare a charge you must be able to contact your target unit. If a friendly unit is partly blocking then you can not declare a charge in the first place. Sounds like for whatever reason one of those charges would have to be cancelled as it could not have been made in the first place.

One thing we usually do with intercepts is to just move the front rank of figures in case it does not work out its easier to move them back to their starting point. The French are notorious for trying to wheel their way past my intercepts

[pugsville]

What about units that have a charge declared against them but cancelled? can they intercept?

Cancelled charges occur when the charging unit is intercepted in the flank or rear.

[deadtorius]

Once again they are the target of a charge and can not intercept.

Once a successful intercept has been made the charge is cancelled but you have to have declared all your intercepts for the turn before you make any intercept moves.

Your cav unit that was the target of a charge is no longer the target of a charge, but the time to declare intercepts has passed for this turn so you can only move during the maneuver phase.

Obviously you have a real addiction to trying to get in sneaky intercepts

[KeefM]

Worth re-reading the rules on this one I think because nowhere does it preclude countercharges AND intercepts of the same charge.

The full action sequence (page 24) lays out the following sequence under the Assault Phase:

1) active players declares all charges
2) active player takes all CMTs needed for charges
3) non-active players declares reactions and takes tests for those actions
4) units making intercept or countercharges are then moved, intercepted units move into contact with interceptors
5) artillery shooting at medium range fire
6) if assualting units will be fired on at short range these are moved to 2MU and fired at
7) active players moves assaulting units to contact if allowed

On page 30, left hand column second bullet from top, the countercharge is explained. Two things are worth noting here: a) the distance is either 4MU or half the distance whichever is less, b) if they cannot move their full distance then they move as far as possible. That the 4MU maximum countercharge is the same distance as an intercept move is not an accident I suspect. (BTB, IMHO, b) clears up the issue about whether a unit can countercharge out of reach of a second charger - say, charged from two directions where a countercharge of either moves the target out of reach of the other, ie it can't do that.)

Nowhere does it say that an intercept charge cancels the original charge except when it contacts a flank or rear of the chargers (page 32, left hand column, last bullet). The top of the right hand column same page then goes on to say as the very last additional point that the original target does not have to make any of the otherwise complusory tests for being assaulted (if not contacted). This is an important consideration, in as much as it is only the tests that are specifically mentioned as not being required and thus implying that the other reactions still take place. Does this mean that skirmishers charged still evade ? (no test is required for this unlike forming square for a different example)

So, this would be an easy matter to clear up.

A simple statement from Terry saying that a successful intercept cancels any countercharges (and other reactions - not just the tests) would resolve the question.

[deadtorius]

That whole last point thing seems to be where the confusion does arise as it does imply to me anyway that the target does not react to being charged if their charger is intercepted so as I understood it no testing for wavering, skirmishers don't evade, infantry do not have to test for not being in square and thus no countercharge etc.
As you say a definite yes or no ruling would help out here.

[Blathergut]

cavalry unit A is directly square and 4 mu from infantry unit B and 8mu from cavalry unit C
unit A charges unit B, C intercept charges 4 Mu now perfectly level with infantry unit B

does unit B test or fight? or do Legal intercept moves must stop the charger from contacting the original target?



A successful intercept stops the charging unit from making contact with its target. The charge is cancelled the target unit does not take any cohesion tests or reaction moves, like forming square in this case I assume, so the square would not be in contact and would not fight.
IF the charging cavalry contacts the square and the interceptors at the same time it is not a legal intercept so the intercepting unit would return to its starting point and the intercept would be cancelled.

I would think in this situation, both enemy would fight the charging cavalry. The intercept does not cancel a charge. Note the last bullet on page 32:

-The original target of the assault does not have to make any of the otherwise compulsory tests for being assaulted if all of the assaulting units fail to make contact because of an interception.

In this case the chargers still would make contact despite the intercept.

Plus: The charging cavalry could perhaps wheel so that the intercept would not make contact.

[deadtorius]

A successful intercept prevents the chargers from contacting their target. If the chargers contact the square before or at the same point as they contact the intercept the intercept should not occur, it does not stop the chargers from reaching their target.

The whole idea of an intercept is to stop the chargers from making contact with their intended target.

[Blathergut]

Correct, except for the one situation mentioned where, once moved, the interceptors are exactly lined up with the original target. How can the chargers move and not contact the two units? And where does it say a successful intercept (which would be what?) cancels a charge. It describes how it gets in the way and the chargers stop when they come into contact.

[KeefM]

Also note that the last bullet "additional points to note" (right hand column top of page 32) also clearly says that it is the tests that are not taken (it does not say that other reactions don't happen). An evade by infantry skirmishers, for example, requires no test and so would presumably still occur whether or not the chargers were intercepted. A countercharge also requires no test.

[terrys]

And where does it say a successful intercept (which would be what?) cancels a charge.

> An intercept is successful if it ends in a position where it is contacted by the enemy charging unit.
> A successful intercept removes the requirement of a test by the original target of the charge. (and also means that the target of the charge cannot make that reaction).
> A reactions by the target of the original charge MUST still be made if it does not require a test.
I think there are only 2:
>> Infantry skirmishers must still evade.
>> Steady or disordered non-skirmishing cavalry must still counter-charge.

It is possible for a charging unit to contact both the counter-charging unit AND an intercepting unit. The 2 reacting units have to end their intercept/counter-charge in a position where the charging unit will contact both at the same time. It can get a bit mathematical, but you can use the following to work it out:
1) Move the counter-charge first .
2) Identify where the chargers would contact them. (move the front rank bases only)
3) This should give you the position that the interceptors would need to reach in order to fight both in combat at the same time.

[deadtorius]

One thing I thought of later that I am still sure on Terry, if an intercept fails to contact the chargers, for example they manage to wheel out of the interceptors range/ intercept path, do the interceptors return to their start point or do they stay where there intercept move ends?
Glad to see you back here Terry

[terrys]

The chargers can only wheel at the start of the charge, and the amount of wheel should be stated at the time of the charge declaration.
As such the path of the charge is fixed at this time, and cannot be changed because of an interception.
If an intercept unit cannot get to a point where the chargers will contact them the intercept move cannot be made. Note that interceptors cannot actually contact the chargers - they place themselves in the path of the charge and are themselves hit by the charging unit.

[deadtorius]

Thanks that's some valuable information I will have to remember and should hopefully keep the frogs honest.

[pugsville]

The exception on actually contacting the chargers would be flank and rear intercept charges? (in which case the chargers don't get it move at all)