Undocumented Patch Notes

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:23 am

Units that engage targets with a corresponding [1] value do not consume ammo of the defending unit.

In other words, you cannot strafe an IS-2 with a fighter to drain all of it's ammunition away.

impar · Post by **impar** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:20 am

That also applies to non-switchable AA units ground attacked?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:36 am

Actually... no it doesn't.
AD units who are attacked by ground units still consume ammo.

In fact, to clarify, this rule only applies to units with attack values of [1]. The German recon car with [2] consumes ammunition when defending itself from air attacks.

impar · Post by **impar** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:01 am

It seems an elegant solution...
But how would a player who doesnt browse forums find out about it?

unicorn77 · Post by **unicorn77** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:32 am

Impar, that's a very astute question. But one that applies to much more, I think. Speaking as one who struggled to some sort of understanding of the first PG incarnation without forum help, I can say that this forum has helped me greatly to go further in PC, to enjoy it more and to keep the interest up.

It would be nice if all the forum information was put together into a comprehensive guide. I've been browsing topics galore on the forum in an effort to further my understanding, which is a bit haphazard. It could be argued that the manual should include that but then it wouldn't be a very easy read for new players, so I would plump for a separate guide. Perhaps there's a business opportunity there.......

Longasc · Post by **Longasc** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:30 pm

48 ammo for this particular Recon SdKfz... hehe!

(makes me wonder if any recon unit lives long enough to fire 48 rounds)

A good new rule, I like it.

P.S. how about a new 10 ammo standard for Schnellboote?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:48 pm

I'm pretty sure the schnellboot will remain at 2 default ammo. Sometimes it's appropriate for this unit to have only 2 ammo, as we have in the current campaign.
At other times, it fits the scale better to temporarily 'overload' the unit with extra ammo.

So if anyone wants or needs a 10 ammo schnellboot, its very easily achieved in the editor.
And I tell you what, I don't think I've ever had a schnellboot survive to use all 10 ammo, return for resupply, and then use at least 2 more. So that '10' only temporary is more than sufficient.

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:23 am

Kerensky wrote:I'm pretty sure the schnellboot will remain at 2 default ammo. Sometimes it's appropriate for this unit to have only 2 ammo, as we have in the current campaign.
At other times, it fits the scale better to temporarily 'overload' the unit with extra ammo.

So if anyone wants or needs a 10 ammo schnellboot, its very easily achieved in the editor.
And I tell you what, I don't think I've ever had a schnellboot survive to use all 10 ammo, return for resupply, and then use at least 2 more. So that '10' only temporary is more than sufficient.

Are you intentionally trying to ignore the comments impar and unicorn77 have posted, because it sure looks like it.

They make a good point. A lot of things might be obvious to you as the developer and someone who played the original Panzer General, but for people like me who are not a developer and who never played the original, I find the documentation severely lacking.

Sure, it covers all the basics and that part is well done, but that's about it. There are so many things that are simply not covered and I'm not talking about strategies, but simply a more in depth explanation of the game mechanics. I shouldn't have to dig through all kind of random posts on a forum, to get a better understanding of the game. Not only that, forums are a terrible tool to get things like this organized.

It disappoints me over and over again how bad the documentation of a lot of software is. I also think I have the right to be so critical, after all I've written many tutorials and lots of documentation over the last 9 years for millions of people on my web sites related to graphic design and I've been praised for it many times, heck even one of my tutorials was the most "digged" tutorial of the year on Digg.com. It's not to brag, is to make the people who read my post understand how serious I am about educating people. You can get people so excited about a software product (not a game), that they actually make a profession out of it (and I have tons of examples), something that never would have happened if they had a bad start. Heck, some are getting so excited that they want to help others too. With a game, it means a long term interest when there is a great guide, which is good for the life-span of the product, especially one that can benefit from more content.

But....once I'm the one who needs help with a product, I often end up on forums. Take an iPhone game like World Conqueror 1945, a turn based strategy game; it lacks any documentation. It's a laziness that frustrates me to no end.

I say it again....it doesn't have to be a manual that digs really deep, I don't need strategies, but it should offer a lot more than what is offered now. If you think it puts such a burden on the development team, why not make it an additional product; a book, DVD or PDF and ask a small amount of money for it. I seriously wouldn't mind paying $20 just to get a more detailed reference manual. Just the fact that I have millions of people coming to my main site every year, only confirms that there is such a huge demand for information, but sadly most developers ignore it, which reminds me of the Linux nerds who think it's a lot more fun to fiddle with the OS, than writing any, in their eyes, boring documentation.

Just my humble 2 cents.

Rosseau · Post by **Rosseau** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:04 am

Wings has his points, of course. For example, Panzer General Forever, seemed so simple, you didn't need many "how and why" explanations. I am glad there is more depth to the new iteration.

Problem is we may have to do the forum crawl for a while. I'd hate to see them get distracted from finishing up the 1941 campaign expansion

I'm sure at some point we'll see an in-depth FAQ on what's going on under the hood here.

deducter · Post by **deducter** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:09 am

I certainly agree documentation needs to be better, and it should be for free, since this is just part of the mechanics of the game. Stuff like how adjacent units affect resupply/reinforcement, how being in a friendly city in bad weather gives full resupply, the mechanics of surrender and retreat, how for green units every 2 kills = 1 additional suppression (this value is reduced for more experienced units, another reason to have elite forces), how infantry get a defense bonus when attacking AT units, how artillery get a penalty to attack (well, I think it's a defense bonus to the target actually) in bad weather, and more stuff, should be included in an appendix to the manual.

This is a stickied thread on some of this stuff:

viewtopic.php?t=27283

BUT, since there is already such a thread, one of the developers should take the time out and compile this into a PDF document and include it as an appendix to the manual. Even if writing it from scratch, it shouldn't take more than a few hours. PzC has few rules compared to many wargames, and that is I think a great strength, especially for MP.

scvftw · Post by **scvftw** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:06 am

Wings wrote:

Sure, it covers all the basics and that part is well done, but that's about it. There are so many things that are simply not covered and I'm not talking about strategies, but simply a more in depth explanation of the game mechanics. I shouldn't have to dig through all kind of random posts on a forum, to get a better understanding of the game. Not only that, forums are a terrible tool to get things like this organized.

I can't agree more.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:29 am

Wings wrote:Are you intentionally trying to ignore the comments impar and unicorn77 have posted, because it sure looks like it.

What's to ignore? They asked and received answers.
You mean their questions about a comprehensive guide that covers all the little mechanics currently spread on the forums? Sure I'd welcome that, but why should I reiterate the obvious when it's already posted for everyone to read as a sticky thread. Thread's right here, see for yourself.
viewtopic.php?t=26253

lordzimoa wrote:Hi guys,

We look to compose a team of volunteers to compose and write a complete detailed Game Guide on Panzer Corps.

We have no time ourselves to write one, but we will assist in editing/proofreading/localization and final layout.

Please post here if you are interested and what you want to contribute, if we find enough volunteers we can organize a team structure and get this rolling.

Thanks,

Tim aka LZ

If anyone has questions about mechanics they are uncertain of, then by all means I welcome these people to come to the forums and ask for information, details, and specifics.
And you know, there may be mechanics and behavior even us devs don't know about because the game is behaving in ways we did not anticipate. For example river/bridge pathing, and snowy hill pathing, or the inability of 3 speed tanks to retreat into bocage hexes. Are these bugs or features? Well that all depends who you ask.

Linai · Post by **Linai** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:37 am

wait wait wait...

your bashin on him about visible documentation when you couldnt find teh announcemnt thread explainin why the documentation isnt available for you???

lols!

btw ur wrong dev, its not a sticky, its an ANNOUNCEMNT!

berndN · Post by **berndN** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:44 am

My own advise would be to look for some kind of wiki, which could be hosted by slitherine, and has the possibility to have sub categories for the published games. To make things simple a dedicated linux host (one dns entry) which easily could be virtualized or a real host would be enough. Then you only need to maintain the topics so that with the right extension you can get a nicely PDF from it which users can download or you can use the same PDF as an extra on the CD/Download of the game installer. Or only a link to it on the PC/BA/... game launcher

Just an idea

impar · Post by **impar** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:18 am

Although it would be nice to have some hidden rules available somewhere (PDF, Wiki, etc) my concern was more related to unit attributes that are hidden in the purchase screen. Things like rate of fire, role switching, [1] air attack not wasting ammo, military engineers ignoring entrenchement, fort killer ability, ...
All of those affect the value of an unit and are hidden from the player.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:38 pm

The equipment.pzeqp file can be opened in Excel. It might help in the short term with some of those hidden values. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16283408/Panzer ... ipment.xls

impar · Post by **impar** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:31 pm

El_Condoro wrote:The equipment.pzeqp file can be opened in Excel. It might help in the short term with some of those hidden values.

In the short term, what about long term and players who dont read forums?

kjeld111 · Post by **kjeld111** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:11 am

Well, there are two UI changes that would help a lot :
- displaying the special traits of the unit (switchable, fortkiller ...) (in both the unit purchase screen and the right click info screen)
- displaying the stats modifiers from heroes and experience (in the right click info screen)