Surrender in the game is not working right IMHO

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:19 pm

When I have units that are surrounded by my guys, they should not surrender. I'm in '39 campaign and a line of tanks in ardenes. French troops attack one of my tanks and it surrenders in the middle of two other german units. This is just not right. Please look at the surrender code. If this is WAD then I'm gonna be extremely frustrated with this game. Also, when I have a city surrounded and the unit in the city attacks one of my guys who is blocked by my own troops, I get a surrender and this also doesn't make sense.

Seriously, this is happening way too often and IMHO the game is becoming unplayable with these kinds of losses. I'm playing at FM level. I'm on second scenario of 39' campaign and have lost 4 units to surrender.

Surrender should only occur if a unit is blocked by enemy units and can't get away. If friendly units are it it's way then it should be able to pass through them, just like in real life. Units, especially germans don't surrender so easily, especially this early in the war.

Whaz up with these results?

Bret

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:15 am

A unit needs a vacant hex to retreat. Period.

Funny it is not in the manual.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:31 am

Given that units can't stack, I guess it would be difficult to code it any other way. It works this way in PG2, too. The trick is to leave a hex into which your units can retreat if attacked, especially a tank in a dangerous position. ALternatively use a vulnerable unit as a trap if it's well supported by artillery. In any case, this is as it is and is something to be planned for in an attack or defence.

grabbysnatch · Post by **grabbysnatch** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:54 am

I have noticed this. I have even lost units that couldnt retreat when they still had 4 or 5 strength left. Guess its my own fault for not leaving a line of retreat! it's a bummer though

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:59 pm

This is the most absurd game rule I've ever seen as it is not even close to reality. I would like the game to at least be somewhat realistic, even for a beer and pretzel game. dumb de dumb dumb dumb dumb. Who came up with this rule? Bad game design.

Razz1 wrote:A unit needs a vacant hex to retreat. Period.

Funny it is not in the manual.

wyldman68 · Post by **wyldman68** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:42 pm

bretg80 wrote:This is the most absurd game rule I've ever seen as it is not even close to reality. I would like the game to at least be somewhat realistic, even for a beer and pretzel game. dumb de dumb dumb dumb dumb. Who came up with this rule? Bad game design.

Razz1 wrote:A unit needs a vacant hex to retreat. Period.

Funny it is not in the manual.

SSI came up with this rule! Has been in the PG series from the beginning, you always leave retreat zones for your troops.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:20 pm

bretg80 wrote:This is the most absurd game rule I've ever seen as it is not even close to reality. I would like the game to at least be somewhat realistic, even for a beer and pretzel game. dumb de dumb dumb dumb dumb. Who came up with this rule? Bad game design.

So what do you suggest exactly? If any friendly units are standing next to attacked unit, surrender is not triggered? This will effectively destroy surrender rule, because situation when a unit is surrounded by 6 enemies is extremely rare. I don't think it will benefit the gameplay, and when your units almost never surrender, it won't be more realistic either.

As for realism of existing situation, I'm not sure it is such a big problem. On PzC scale units are huge, and the roads are scarse. I mean local roads here, not big ones shown on the map, but it is implied that they are there - vehicles can hardly travel across hills, mountains, forests, swamps etc. without at least small unpaved roads, mountain tracks etc. So yes, if your retreat roads are blocked by, say, friendly infantry unit on the move in trucks, you are stuck and cannot escape the attack of an overwhelming enemy.

Also keep in mind that turn based mechanics implies that the ability of friendly units to come to rescue of attacked unit, even if it is nearby, is limited. They were doing other things and spent their actions on your turn. As an example, surrender often happens when your units unload from sea transports and get stuck between the sea, enemy units and some friendly ones unloading nearby. So yes, friendly units are near. But how can they possibly help? They are unloading themselves at the same moment, it is just because of the TBS mechanics they all are already shown as unloaded when you pass the turn to the opponent. There are some exceptions of course, like defensive fire, and this can potentially protect your unit from being overwhelmed and forced to surrender. But if this did not help - too bad.

dave123 · Post by **dave123** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:43 pm

I've played several campaigns through and never had this happen. Just leave an empty hex.

OmegaMan1 · Post by **OmegaMan1** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:11 pm

This is really a non-issue. It happens once, maybe twice during a campaign, if at all. Like previous posters have mentioned, it's never a good idea to put your units into a situation where they can be backed into a corner. Simple common sense, really.

And as for "bad game design," this is VERY common in conventional (i.e., board) wargames. So it's hardly as if PzC is breaking some sacred convention here.

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:28 am

Sorry guys, but it is a bad design and stupid to have to leave empty hexes. I'm sorry but just because SSI did it is not an excuse to propagate a bad design decision on their part or any other game designer who came up with this ridiculous - let me reiterate - RIDICULOUS rule.

My suggestion is this. If a unit is next to a friendly unit, then it retreats through the friendly unit to an empty hex or trades places with it. You can add additional realism checks if you want to see if there are other enemy units that might block it, but I would be okay with surrender if it can't trade places or is blocked by enemy units on routing through a friendly. I'm okay with surrender when I'm surrounded and don't have any where to go, but look, when you are in the Ardennes and you have a column of tanks with infantry support, it is ridiculous for the tanks to surrender in the middle of the column. Just sayin.

So, that is my suggestion and come'on, it's 2011, let's fix some wrongs in the games from the past. Let's not build a me too, let's build a game that is similar but better. I like playing this game and am having fun with it, but it can be better if we make it better, so let's not defer to the past, let's improve and move forward.

My two cents

dshaw62197 wrote:This is really a non-issue. It happens once, maybe twice during a campaign, if at all. Like previous posters have mentioned, it's never a good idea to put your units into a situation where they can be backed into a corner. Simple common sense, really.

And as for "bad game design," this is VERY common in conventional (i.e., board) wargames. So it's hardly as if PzC is breaking some sacred convention here.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:49 am

^ Sounds like he is really sore because the AI keeps making his units surrender.

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:17 am

AI plays well, no issues with the AI. Have issues with units surrendering when they wouldn't normally. I know, the game is going to go out the way it is, so I'll just be back on the big boards ranting about this issue. I guess many of you are okay with this functionality, but it really is not the right set of game mechanics IMHO, for whatever that is worth.

Back to it.

Razz1 wrote:^ Sounds like he is really sore because the AI keeps making his units surrender.

OmegaMan1 · Post by **OmegaMan1** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 am

Bret, I do understand your point. Having a unit surrender when it has one or more friendly units adjacent is frustrating. I agree it doesn't fit real-world logic. A more realistic method in such instances might be to have the unit retreat through a friendly-occupied hex/hexes until it reaches an empty hex; perhaps as a penalty for such multi-hex moves it could suffer some degree of supression to reflect the necessity of having to move more than a single hex. (Many conventional wargames allow this sort of retreat, although usually the units involved suffer some sort of disorganization due to the confusion of retreat.)

Alas, I think at this point, so close to the release, what we see is what we get. The hope here is that, as players post their thoughts and offer comments/suggestions about the game, changes and improvements will be implemented in future updates. I guess I take issue with the use of the words "dumb" and "stupid." The designers here have worked hard on PzC, and that work is reflected in how much has been improved in this game since its first beta release. In fact, the design team has been pretty good about accepting feedback (positive and negative) and using that imput to make necessary changes. Trust me, there are a few design choices I don't agree with and yet I will still purchase and enjoy PzC.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:09 am

the units involved suffer some sort of disorganization due to the confusion of retreat

I think this is a key point. The 'Surrender' message means all the unit's strength points have been destroyed or suppressed by an attack or series of attacks. At that point the unit retreats. If there is a vacant hex it retreats into it and reorganises itself as best it can by the next turn. If no retreat hex is available it ceases to function as a unit due to: needing to abandon vehicles to be able to retreat through already clogged roads (see post above); retreating through allied units or being unable to retreat due to terrain; and being generally disrupted. If a retreat through allied units was allowed they too should become disrupted - perhaps a worse penalty if you leave an armoured unit behind a weak infantry unit.

Bottom line for me is don't leave units in vulnerable positions even if they're King Tigers at the Bulge. Actually, the roads and terrain there would make them fairly vulnerable I would have thought and abandoning vehicles due to massed attack likely.

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:27 am

My apologies to the design and dev team if I offended anyone. My vernacular was not meant to offend, but to show my frustration after losing more than my fair share to this issue before I became aware of how it works. I imagine this will come up from others on the big board after release.

I'm just passionate about this rule because it has cost me the game on several occasions and it just doesn't follow reasonable logic from my perspective. I am learning how to play around it and I do believe it negatively impacts the tactics and gameplay, but it is not a deal breaker that will keep me from buying the game.

I still plan to continue to push for revisions to this gameplay issue as I believe better alternatives exist as you and I have suggested.

Overall, this is a good game and while I may disagree with certain rules and UI artifacts, I would give this game a 9/10 so far.

Bret

dshaw62197 wrote:Bret, I do understand your point. Having a unit surrender when it has one or more friendly units adjacent is frustrating. I agree it doesn't fit real-world logic. A more realistic method in such instances might be to have the unit retreat through a friendly-occupied hex/hexes until it reaches an empty hex; perhaps as a penalty for such multi-hex moves it could suffer some degree of supression to reflect the necessity of having to move more than a single hex. (Many conventional wargames allow this sort of retreat, although usually the units involved suffer some sort of disorganization due to the confusion of retreat.)

Alas, I think at this point, so close to the release, what we see is what we get. The hope here is that, as players post their thoughts and offer comments/suggestions about the game, changes and improvements will be implemented in future updates. I guess I take issue with the use of the words "dumb" and "stupid." The designers here have worked hard on PzC, and that work is reflected in how much has been improved in this game since its first beta release. In fact, the design team has been pretty good about accepting feedback (positive and negative) and using that imput to make necessary changes. Trust me, there are a few design choices I don't agree with and yet I will still purchase and enjoy PzC.

AgentX · Post by **AgentX** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:36 am

Surrender also works both ways and the enemy is bound by the same rules. Say, you have it your way and you're attacking an enemy unit, but it can "pass" through a friendly unit and retreat to another hex. Problem is that you now can't follow the unit and finish it off since there is now another unit (the "passed through" one) in the way. Another problem, what if the hexes behind the retreating unit are occupied two deep? Units are now going to retreat three hexes away through two friendly units? I'm sorry, but I think the existing rule is in place for a good reason.

dave123 · Post by **dave123** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:26 am

AgentX wrote:Surrender also works both ways and the enemy is bound by the same rules. Say, you have it your way and you're attacking an enemy unit, but it can "pass" through a friendly unit and retreat to another hex. Problem is that you now can't follow the unit and finish it off since there is now another unit (the "passed through" one) in the way. Another problem, what if the hexes behind the retreating unit are occupied two deep? Units are now going to retreat three hexes away through two friendly units? I'm sorry, but I think the existing rule is in place for a good reason.

Another thing, what if the would be hex is off the board? We all know that the land (usually) goes beyond the game map. Another reason why I think it is ok as is.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:48 am

Moving through and swapping units creates a whole range of issues that massively complicate what is in reality a very rare situaiton. It could adds days of programming time and bug fixing. We have far more important things to look at that this in my opinion. I've never seen it my self and only forced a few enemy untis to surrender.

Its a game - these are the rules. Sometimes you just have to live with it

bretg80 · Post by **bretg80** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:25 am

Thanks for the input, I'll play the game by the rules and leave this issue go.

Bret

iainmcneil wrote:Moving through and swapping units creates a whole range of issues that massively complicate what is in reality a very rare situaiton. It could adds days of programming time and bug fixing. We have far more important things to look at that this in my opinion. I've never seen it my self and only forced a few enemy untis to surrender.

Its a game - these are the rules. Sometimes you just have to live with it