Best way to kill a Tank Unit ?

[julyderek]

Hi Guys,

Is this the best sequence to attack to destroy a Tank ?

(1) Air attack
(2) Corps Attack
(3) Motorized Corps attack
(4) Tank attack.

Any ideas ?

[rkr1958]

Hi Guys,

Is this the best sequence to attack to destroy a Tank ?

(1) Air attack
(2) Corps Attack
(3) Motorized Corps attack
(4) Tank attack.

Any ideas ?

I play under the BJR mod, which limits your air attacks to two per hex. Here's a typical attack sequence that I use. Two tactical bomber attacks followed by an attack by an infantry corps (or two infantry corps in the unlikely event you can) followed by an attack by a tank corps. Note that the first infantry unit to attack will likely receive a number of step losses (e.g., 4 or 5) and should attack from a position that will be protected (i.e., behind your lines) after the resolution of combat. Also, if I can avoid it I won't advance with the tank corps that finished it off but try to fill the now vacated hex with a fresh 10-step infantry corps that didn't attack that turn.

The above sequence is in an ideal world and where both sides have long front lines (e.g., Russia 1942 or 1943). Also this attack sequence is dependent on tech levels of the units involved.

In the case of France say the French attack with their armor corps and it's down to 8-steps. I've found that an attack by two tactical bombers followed by a German tank corps is enough to kill it off.

In the vanilla game you can pound away with several air units until it's severely depleted and finish it off with any full strength and effective corps. This is one big difference between playing the vanilla game and one with the BJR mod. In the BJR mod whole corps can't be destroyed or nearly destroyed by air alone. Air is used to soften up the corps and prep it for attack by ground units. We feel that this is more historical. There is no case that I know of in WWII with air alone destroyed a full strength corps.

[Offworlder]

I always try to isolate/cut off tank units and pound them piecmeal by my reserve forces. Especially as the allies. it's a rewarding strategy.

All this in vanilla of course.

BTW there was an instant that airpower was really decisive. During the battle of Kursk, the Germans were being outflanked by a Russian Tank Corps. They were halted by a concentration of Richtoften's flyers flying tank busting Ju 87's and Henschels. They practically destroyed or damaged every tank in the Russian formation. Admittedly it was a one off...

[rkr1958]

Richtoften's flyers flying tank busting Ju 87's and Henschels..

Wasn't Richtoften WWI?

[OzHawkeye2]

Being the most mobile of land units can be a double-edged sword for them I think. They're the best at making major breakthroughs on a heavily populated front, and from that use, they're also the most likely to get cut off from supply. That for me is really my only strategy, while I'm happy to plug away taking on infantry units, I go out of my way whenever possible to isolate tank units before taking them on.

[JyriErik]

Richtoften's flyers flying tank busting Ju 87's and Henschels..

Wasn't Richtoften WWI?

Not Manfred, Wolfram. He was a cousin.

Jyri

[rkr1958]

Richtoften's flyers flying tank busting Ju 87's and Henschels..

Wasn't Richtoften WWI?

Not Manfred, Wolfram. He was a cousin.

Jyri

Didn't know that. You learn something everyday. How did Wolfram's record compare to his famous cousin's?

[JyriErik]

Wasn't Richtoften WWI?

Not Manfred, Wolfram. He was a cousin.

Jyri

Didn't know that. You learn something everyday. How did Wolfram's record compare to his famous cousin's?

Different type of air commander. His reputation was in ground support. As already mentioned, his units mauled a Russian tank corps at Kursk. They also supported the assault on Sevastopol. The Wehrmacht considered him to be the best commander the Luftwaffe had when it came to ground support. The only real failure he ever had was that it was his command that had the onus of supplying Stalingrad (from day one he protested it as being impossible although he did his best to do so). His personal reputation, plus the Richthofen family name allowed him a measure of protection from Göring's wrath for being right.


Jyri

[Offworlder]

He had been conducting ground support missions since the Spanish Civil War with the Condor Legion. Usually he moved around with a picked staff wherever the main offensive was meant to be launched. He also tried to reorganise the ground attack arm of the Luftwaffe later in the war.

[johnjoe88]

hi
when tank or mec inf attacks fall back to trap tank,attack on next turn with 2 inf untils or use traped tank to trap others??

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The most famous German Stuka pilot was Hans Ulrich Rudel. He was the highest decorated soldier in Germany and had a really impressive kill list. Look here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

He alone killed more than 2000 targets including more than 800 vehichles, 500 tanks, 150 artillery guns, one destroyer, 2 cruisers and a battleship. He was simply amazing in ground support missions.

He was the only one to receive the Knight's cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.

[Kuz]

"There is no case that I know of in WWII with air alone destroyed a full strength corps."

I think that this is the wrong answer to the wrong question. With regards to tactical, or air-ground operations the question should be how much equipment, material, manpower was destroyed to make that unit non-effective. My take on losses in game is that they are not nesessarily destroyed but reduced to a level where they are no longer effective. Over a 20 day period can an air unit destroy a ground unit....absolutley. I think the BJR mode is a bit to restrictive when it comes to the air war. As far as historical references I posted an article in the history section about air-ground ops in Normady that reflects my opinon.

[jjdenver]

"There is no case that I know of in WWII with air alone destroyed a full strength corps."

I think that this is the wrong answer to the wrong question. With regards to tactical, or air-ground operations the question should be how much equipment, material, manpower was destroyed to make that unit non-effective. My take on losses in game is that they are not nesessarily destroyed but reduced to a level where they are no longer effective. Over a 20 day period can an air unit destroy a ground unit....absolutley. I think the BJR mode is a bit to restrictive when it comes to the air war. As far as historical references I posted an article in the history section about air-ground ops in Normady that reflects my opinon.

Ah I disagree w/ the opinion that BJR mod is too restrictive - but that's why we get opinions - they sometimes don't align. Air in BJR mod is imo the single most important element that determines success or failure of an offensive. It is nearly impossible to conduct a successful offensive campaign w/o air superiority, unless you have completely overwhelming technical dominance or vastly superior numbers, using the BJR mod. 2 air strikes will severely attrit and degrade a unit defending a hex. Since this is an i-go-u-go system the defender gets no chance to react. The unit struck cannot be reinforced, cannot move, cannot fall back, cannot be replaced. Nothing can be done to assist that unit by the defender before the 2 air strikes are followed up by many possible ground attacks. Thus preceding an attack by 2 air strikes gives air superiority the key role in an offensive.

If the system were simultaneous/interactive then perhaps more air strikes might be allowed phased over time. The defender would have the chance to react to the changing battle that is occurring with replacements, reinforcements, and manuever. However we play an i-go-u-go game so there has to be some limit placed on air strikes over a 20 day period. Air in the BJR mod is absolutely crucial - just as it should be.

[Kuz]

I meant the difference between having unlimited number of attacks per hex as we have in vanilla vs. the limitation of only 2 air attacks per hex. I agree its important...so important I think this restriction should be removed.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

In v2.00 of the BJR-mod (currently being betatested) it will be possible to set a lot of new variables in general.txt. One of them is the number of air attacks per hex (currently 2) and number of air attacks per airbase / CV (currently 1). So if you want to allow more attacks per hex then you just set the value to 3, 4 or 99.

My experience from playtesting is that the offensive player usually spreads his air units to ensure he can attack more hexes. 2 attacks per hex seem to be enough most of the places. Against fortresses, mountains or capitals you might fail even after 2 air attacks. But that is fair in my opinion. I never liked that you could just send enough air units to a hex to ensure success. Fortresses weren't worth much since they fell after one turn anyway. Now the fortress lines can actually keep the attacker at bay for awhile. You need to wear down the fortresses by repeated air and land attacks before it falls.

Remember that we make game rules for effect. We want to simulate what really happened in the real war as best we can. Unlimited air attacks was THE most problematic factor when it came to make a more historical mod. The Allies were unstoppable once they got their
hordes of air units. German armor units fell like flies because you could always send 4-5 tac bombers against it before attacking. There was no way the Germans could keep such units in the second line. 4-5 air attacks would kill it without having to engage any land units to the attack. That was not realistic at all and the defender had virtually no chance under such circumstances. Once the German armor was taken care of you could launch your own armor and kill the infantry.

[Kuz]

Thats great that you'll be able to change that in the general.txt. But I wonder if you could set it up so that in the options menu some of this could be selected there. Similar to the oil and FoW options? Air on/off or advanced weather on/off or something like that.


The problem with designing or moding a game based on history is that is it history or your interpretation of it. I believe that if you have 50 people read about the same historical event you'll more than likely get 50 different opinions on it.
For example you say "German armor units fell like flies because you could always send 4-5 tac bombers against it before attacking. There was no way the Germans could keep such units in the second line. 4-5 air attacks would kill it without having to engage any land units to the attack. That was not realistic at all and the defender had virtually no chance under such circumstances. Once the German armor was taken care of you could launch your own armor and kill the infantry." Allied air power especially in late war France was devistating to the Germans. I've read countless reports of how the germans couldn't move during the day for fear they'd be attacked. I forget the air units involved but they refer to them as Patton's air force did clear the way for his advance accross France. The problem is how to relate this in game terms. Frankly I feel vanilla CEW does do a great job in reflecting just how difficult it was for the Germans to operate under Allied air supremecy. With allied air power the defender virtually had no chance is not ahistorical but a historical fact. IMHO

[rkr1958]

The problem with designing or moding a game based on history is that is it history or your interpretation of it. I believe that if you have 50 people read about the same historical event you'll more than likely get 50 different opinions on it.
For example you say "German armor units fell like flies because you could always send 4-5 tac bombers against it before attacking. There was no way the Germans could keep such units in the second line. 4-5 air attacks would kill it without having to engage any land units to the attack. That was not realistic at all and the defender had virtually no chance under such circumstances. Once the German armor was taken care of you could launch your own armor and kill the infantry." Allied air power especially in late war France was devistating to the Germans. I've read countless reports of how the germans couldn't move during the day for fear they'd be attacked. I forget the air units involved but they refer to them as Patton's air force did clear the way for his advance accross France. The problem is how to relate this in game terms. Frankly I feel vanilla CEW does do a great job in reflecting just how difficult it was for the Germans to operate under Allied air supremecy. With allied air power the defender virtually had no chance is not ahistorical but a historical fact. IMHO

The issue with unlimited air attacks is that air alone can destroy a full strength tank corps. Not just once by a lucky chance but over and over. There are no accounts in WWII of a full strength corps being destroyed by airpower alone. Air supremacy in the BJRMod is key and we've discovered through significant playtesting and tweaking that the limit of two air attacks per hex (one per airbase) produces outcomes that we (testers and development teams) believe to better represent historical outcomes.

Thats great that you'll be able to change that in the general.txt. But I wonder if you could set it up so that in the options menu some of this could be selected there. Similar to the oil and FoW options? Air on/off or advanced weather on/off or something like that.

You have to realize that we do this as a hobby. Our reward is the joy we get out of accomplishing something and a richer gaming experience (from the team's point of view). Not saying we won't; but it would require a lot of effort to design and implement a gui that allows you to set parameters that can already be changed in a data file. This is effort we could use to "improve" the mod to include airborne or a Med supply convoy system. To be honest I don't see a big difference between opening up the "general.txt" with a text editor and changing values versus doing that via a gui. However; the amount of effort and time required between the two is.

[Kuz]

If you can't change the gui you can't change the gui no problem. I just thought it'd be a nice touch.


Ok lets agree to disagree on the history and concentrate on the mod. Here's my problem;

It's been my experience with the mod, late war France that when attacking a tank unit the losses are on an average about 3 steps between two air attacks. Is this normal results for you? In a game finished just last night German tanks were 11 and my allied air was 12.

To JulyDerek: I've totally hijacked your thread and I do apologize.

[rkr1958]

If you can't change the gui you can't change the gui no problem. I just thought it'd be a nice touch.

It's not a matter of can't but priority. What you suggest would indeed be a very nice touch but we tend to focus on changes that implement a desired game play functionality (e.g., limited air attacks to two per hex and one per airbase hex, invasion and transport limits, winter in Europe effects).

Ok lets agree to disagree on the history and concentrate on the mod. Here's my problem;

It's been my experience with the mod, late war France that when attacking a tank unit the losses are on an average about 3 steps between two air attacks. Is this normal results for you? In a game finished just last night German tanks were 11 and my allied air was 12.

As I remember, three to four steps of loss from two tactical bomber attacks on a German tank corps is about typical late in the war. Of course, this average can vary greatly depending on the allied air and German armor tech levels. But, I'd say three to four is typical. In addition to the step losses incurred the air attacks greatly reduce the effectiveness of the armor; which means that the German armored can be killed off by a follow up attack by two corps (e.g., armor + infantry corps) with minimum losses to the attacking corps.

Another reason that we limited air attacks to two per hex was that a "cheesy" way to take out Italy was to part a transport next to Rome. Then, on the next turn hit Rome with 10 or more air attacks until the defenders were completely destroyed and then unload the transport. Usually the Allies could accomplish this by mid 1943. All they had to do was captured Sardinia and Corsica and deploy 10 to 12 air units there.

[JyriErik]

There are no accounts in WWII of a full strength corps being destroyed by airpower alone.

I believe it's been mentioned earlier, but the 2nd Guards Tank Corps was annihilated by airpower alone at Kursk (giving it the dubious distinction of being the only such unit in all of WW II). However, you can make the point that quite a few units were made unfit for combat by airpower, allowing ground troops to (essentially) roll through what was left and finish the job airpower started which could be considered annihilation in game terms.

Jyri