The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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Kabill
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by Kabill »

shadowblack wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:03 amI do feel it may not help the 0-0 battle where one player won't agree to redoing terrain. 0pts each is better than giving 4pts to your opponent, but I guess that's a different issue.
I'm not sure that should be an issue:
- If both players have strong positions that neither are willing to attack, it is in both players' best interests to reroll so they can play a fair game and have a shot at winning;
- If one player has an advantageous position and the other player refuses to attack, it is in the best interest of the advantaged player to fight a fair battle either by agreeing to a reroll or giving up their advantage to attack, because otherwise the outcome is equivalent to a loss.

There are some circumstances where this might not apply (e.g. you're ahead in the table such that opponents can only catch you if they win, so refusing to fight and denying your opponents points it the best option, but if you're that far ahead in the table you're probably very good relative to the division anyway and could risk giving up an advantage for a fair fight as you'll probably win anyway). But I think they're pretty rare, and I'm not sure there's really anything you can do about them (it's not addressed by any of the options proposed, and the only solution I can think of involves removing points, which I really don't think is a good thing to be doing).
Kabill's Great Generals Mod for FoG2: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=492&t=84915
stockwellpete
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

Kabill wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:35 am
shadowblack wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:03 amI do feel it may not help the 0-0 battle where one player won't agree to redoing terrain. 0pts each is better than giving 4pts to your opponent, but I guess that's a different issue.
There are some circumstances where this might not apply (e.g. you're ahead in the table such that opponents can only catch you if they win, so refusing to fight and denying your opponents points it the best option, but if you're that far ahead in the table you're probably very good relative to the division anyway and could risk giving up an advantage for a fair fight as you'll probably win anyway). But I think they're pretty rare, and I'm not sure there's really anything you can do about them (it's not addressed by any of the options proposed, and the only solution I can think of involves removing points, which I really don't think is a good thing to be doing).
I do think these stalemates may still occur very occasionally and there is not much we can do about it. We had one situation this season where the bottom 2 players had to play each other in the last match with one of the players ahead of the other on points at the start. So, in theory, the player in ninth place could have opted for a 0-0 draw if the terrain had been very difficult in order to relegate the other player. The player in tenth place might then have had to make a suicidal attack in a desperate attempt to win points to overtake his opponent. Happily, they were both using horse archer armies and they fought what seems to have been a very close and exciting match.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

I hope this is a bit better than my previous effort. :roll:

Possible scoring systems for FOG2DL

.......................Points awarded.......................................
Match Score..... Current..... Option 2..... Option 3..... Option 2/3..... Option 4

.... 40-15........... 4-0....... .... 4-0..... ..... 4-0.......... .... 4-0.......... .... 6-0
.... 45-20........... 4-0........ .. 4-0..... .. ... 4-0..... .. ..... .4-0..... ........ . 6-1
.... 60-40............ 4-0.......... 4-0........... 4-0.............. 4-0............... . 6-2
.... 60-60............ 2-2.......... 2-2........... 2-2............... 2-2................ 3-3
.... 59-35........... 1-1........... 1-1........... 3-0.............. 3-1................ 2-1
.... 59-59 ............ 1-1.......... 1-1........... 1-1............... 1-1............... 2-2
.... 39-15............ 1-1.......... 1-0........... 3-0............... 3-0............... 1-0
.... 39-39............ 1-1........... 1-1........... 1-1............... 1-1............... 1-1
.... 19-0............. 1-1.......... 0-0........... 3-0............... 0-0............... 0-0
.... 19-19............ 1-1........... 0-0........... 1-1.............. 0-0................ 0-0
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

In terms of anomalies, so far I have picked up one for the hybrid 2/3 idea and four for option 4 in the poll. They are . . .

1) hybrid 2/3 idea - players in a tactical 35% -35% draw will score 1 point each, the same as a player losing 20-44 in a marginal defeat.

2) option 4 - a player losing a match 20-45 will score 1 point, the same as two players drawing a tactical match 39-39.

3) option 4 - a player losing a match 40-65 will score 2 points, more than players drawing a tactical match 39-39, and more than a player drawing a match 39-15 or 39-40.

4) option 4 - a player losing a match 40-65 will score 2 points, the same as players in a 59-59 draw.

5) option 4 - a player losing a match 0-40 will score 0 points, the same as a player drawing a match 19-0.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by shadowblack »

I don't really see the hybrid anomaly being any worse than two players opting for a 0-0 getting the same points as those finishing a 59-59 blood fest under the current system.
Think I'm right saying a 59-58 result means a 3-1 pts total which could be considered harsh compared to 1pt each now.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

shadowblack wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:50 am I don't really see the hybrid anomaly being any worse than two players opting for a 0-0 getting the same points as those finishing a 59-59 blood fest under the current system.
Think I'm right saying a 59-58 result means a 3-1 pts total which could be considered harsh compared to 1pt each now.
A 59/58 result is a straightforward draw in all circumstances, getting 1 point each in options 2 and 3 and hybrid idea 2/3, except for option 4 where you would get 2 points each. To get a marginal victory you need to win by 15% or more in idea hybrid 2/3.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by DzonVejn »

Morbio wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:57 pm
DzonVejn wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:13 pm I have voted for the last option. I would just reduce value of win to 2 points, so won games would become more important.

Option 2: so we would now agree to give 20% to each other instead of 0-0....
Option 4: even worse - we would now agree to give 40% to each other instead of 0-0, and get more points for that....
In theory you are correct, but I'd be amazed if our community would act this way. It's one thing to cheat the system alone, but when there's a need to ask others to collude it would soon be public knowledge... and this wouldn't go down well. So I think the risk of shaming would stop this.
I don't see that as a cheating - sometimes the terrain is just plain bad for both players. Neither is willing to give it a go, and they are both OK with splitting the points. Where is there a cheating? Or when neither can break the other - they just agree to finish the game earlier.

Options 2 and 4 would also further penalize infantry armies. Because I can risk some horse archers to shoot 20% of opponent, while he can't risk his pikes / heavy infantry.

Finally never underestimate the power of money - I don't know if this season / next one are also sponsored by Slitherine, but as soon as you have rewards, people behave way different.

Anyway - I'm really OK with any rule-set that is chosen. Whichever system you choose, there will always be some army that is better at a given system. You just can't balance everything - believe me, I've been trying in the past to balance many games for tournaments, and there was always some army that was a "loophole" under the given rules.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

DzonVejn wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:52 pm Finally never underestimate the power of money - I don't know if this season / next one are also sponsored by Slitherine, but as soon as you have rewards, people behave way different.
Yes, Slitherine have sponsored the FOG2DL this season and I think they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by harveylh »

I'm new to the Digital League, having just finished my first set of matches. However I would strongly object to not being able to submit my armies in order of preference. I don't mind lower ranked players getting their first choices, but I do want to use my preferred remaining army.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by TheGrayMouser »

DzonVejn wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:52 pm
Morbio wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:57 pm
DzonVejn wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:13 pm I have voted for the last option. I would just reduce value of win to 2 points, so won games would become more important.

Option 2: so we would now agree to give 20% to each other instead of 0-0....
Option 4: even worse - we would now agree to give 40% to each other instead of 0-0, and get more points for that....
In theory you are correct, but I'd be amazed if our community would act this way. It's one thing to cheat the system alone, but when there's a need to ask others to collude it would soon be public knowledge... and this wouldn't go down well. So I think the risk of shaming would stop this.
I don't see that as a cheating - sometimes the terrain is just plain bad for both players. Neither is willing to give it a go, and they are both OK with splitting the points. Where is there a cheating? Or when neither can break the other - they just agree to finish the game earlier.

Forgive me DzonVejn if I misunderstand you, but are you suggesing that if both players just make up a more favourable "draw score" so they get more points each, instead of playing it out,it isnt cheating?
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

I am going to close the poll at the same time the league finishes at 9pm (BST) on Sunday August 12th. There is no need to let it run for another week.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by DzonVejn »

TheGrayMouser wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:51 pm Forgive me DzonVejn if I misunderstand you, but are you suggesing that if both players just make up a more favourable "draw score" so they get more points each, instead of playing it out,it isnt cheating?
Can't you tell the same for current situation? You just don't play anything - which is a cheating in a way. I didn't even know there is a option to restart the game with new map setup (which is also cheating in a certain way).

I'm just telling that it won't change anything for the better, in my personal opinion. As a matter of fact, it'll be even worse, because the first one to kill 20%, can start running and deny a point to other player. But as I said - I'm OK with any rule set, as no rule set can provide 100% balance. And it'll be the same for everyone, so it doesn't really matter.
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by stockwellpete »

DzonVejn wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:53 am I didn't even know there is a option to restart the game with new map setup (which is also cheating in a certain way).
There isn't. Players would have to agree to re-start within the first two turns of a match, close that game down and then issue a new challenge and start again.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by ianiow »

harveylh wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:06 pm I'm new to the Digital League, having just finished my first set of matches. However I would strongly object to not being able to submit my armies in order of preference. I don't mind lower ranked players getting their first choices, but I do want to use my preferred remaining army.
I agree. I see a move towards each Division having 1x roman army, 1x pike, 1x bow, 1x MF, 1x cavalry, 1x horde, 1x carthage army etc. Personally I don't mind fighting more than one Roman army in a division. I like civil war scenarios!
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete »

harveylh wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:06 pm I'm new to the Digital League, having just finished my first set of matches. However I would strongly object to not being able to submit my armies in order of preference. I don't mind lower ranked players getting their first choices, but I do want to use my preferred remaining army.
The reason that I am suggesting that it might be better, on balance, to remove "order of preference" from the army selection procedure relates to our discussion about the increasing number of drawn matches this season in the FOG2DL. My suspicion is that some players really only focus on their first choice army so that when they eventually get allocated a second or third choice preference they can sometimes be a little less confident about using it. And this diminished confidence may, on occasions, result in more defensive play. I am fairly certain this does happen although I am less certain about how often it happens and therefore how significant an issue it is. One possible remedy is to remove the "order of preference" feature and ask players to just indicate the three (currently) or four (possibly in the future) armies they would like to use in a season. By having "no order of preference" it will hopefully require players to focus on all three (or four) armies rather than just the one.

The way that I allocate armies to players now happens like this. First I put players into the divisions based on promotion and relegation, player ratings and form in other tournaments if the player is entering the FOG2DL for the first time. Army choices play no part at all in the procedure at this stage. Once I have all the divisions set up I then start working through them, one at a time. I take a sheet of paper and write down in a column all the names of the players in a division and I put their three army choices on the same line as their name. I then try and maximise the number of first choices and then second choices from the "pattern" of army selections in front of me, remembering that I can only put one army from each nation into the final line-up. Sometimes the pattern will allow me, say, six first choices and four second choices (which I write as 6-4-0, where there are no third choices) and this is a good outcome. But, on other occasions, the best that I might be able to come up with is 3-5-2, often because the players in that division have tended to pick similar armies. Sometimes I will have a choice to make between, say, 4-6-0 and 5-3-2, and I would always choose 4-6-0 because I try to avoid allocating third choices where possible, because often a player will give much less thought to a third choice army. If I am forced to allocate a third choice army then I make a note of the player's name so that they do not get another third choice allocation that season, or in the next one. The important point is that while I am doing this allocation procedure the names of the players are completely irrelevant to me. I am just trying to get the best pattern so that most players will be reasonably happy.

This has been a very robust system in the 6 seasons of the FOG1DL and FOG2DL and I have barely had a complaint in all that time. So, if a change is going to be made now, then it would have to be for a very good reason. My next post (later on today) will look at an alternative way of doing things.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott »

TheGrayMouser wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:10 pmWell I had to ask because I dropped out of the league soon after the revelations of the rear charge bug,
What rear charge bug?
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott »

shadowblack wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:14 pmI don't feel there is a need to ban cav armies (or even limit them). That sets a dangerous precedent for the future when someone wants to complain about something. I for one, won't be picking one in Late or Classical and suspect neither will rbs or klayeckles.
Very true.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete »

rbodleyscott wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am
TheGrayMouser wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:10 pmWell I had to ask because I dropped out of the league soon after the revelations of the rear charge bug,
What rear charge bug?
I think TGM is referring to FOG1 where you could create a rear charge for yourself by moving a unit in two stages. There was a big uproar about it, if I remember correctly.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott »

stockwellpete wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:01 am
rbodleyscott wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am
TheGrayMouser wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:10 pmWell I had to ask because I dropped out of the league soon after the revelations of the rear charge bug,
What rear charge bug?
I think TGM is referring to FOG1 where you could create a rear charge for yourself by moving a unit in two stages. There was a big uproar about it, if I remember correctly.
Ah you mean it wasn't programmed to only allow rear charges if the unit's whole turn started behind the flank/rear?
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Re: Indicative poll for the FOG2DL

Post by DzonVejn »

stockwellpete wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:59 am
DzonVejn wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:53 am I didn't even know there is a option to restart the game with new map setup (which is also cheating in a certain way).
There isn't. Players would have to agree to re-start within the first two turns of a match, close that game down and then issue a new challenge and start again.
Yes, I didn't know about it as an option. I have probably missed it in the rules.
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