Panzer Corps East - The struggle for Russia "Grand Strategy"

[Chris10]

I think these transports look very nice ingame

[airbornemongo101]

I think these transports look very nice ingame

Chris, every unit you've made looks awesome

[Chris10]

Chris, every unit you've made looks awesome

thnx Bob but I didnt made any of them...
Thnx to Rezafs tool and Flakkis skins I just skinned the SS, the transports and reworked the Famo to fit the game and a generic unit here an there but the bunch of icons were provided to me by Bebro,Kerloc,Rezaf,VPaulus,Via Patet and some others I dont recall right now...have to look it up before writing the credits file

[flakfernrohr]

Hi Chris, I agree with Mongo. They look very very nice. When some of these skins are put on the right icons and are placed on the playing hexes, they seem to look very realistic. When I tested some of my new icons and skins by putting them on the screen and playing with them, I discovered some of the skins I was not so hot about are now some of my favourites because the icons look so realistic and not like something a hobbyist would make up for a model contest because they were not complex and bright, they were subtle, uncomplicated and weathered. I really like the Famo because it is an impressive halftrack in the game.

I forgot to mention, I had my Maultiers labeled as SdKfz 4's and found out later and was also reminded they are actually SdKfz 3 designated. SdKfz 4 were armored cab halftracks with AA guns like the SWS, etc.

[Chris10]

Hi Chris, I agree with Mongo. They look very very nice. When some of these skins are put on the right icons and are placed on the playing hexes, they seem to look very realistic. When I tested some of my new icons and skins by putting them on the screen and playing with them, I really like the Famo because it is an impressive halftrack in the game.

thnx Dwight...

I forgot to mention, I had my Maultiers labeled as SdKfz 4's and found out later and was also reminded they are actually SdKfz 3 designated. SdKfz 4 were armored cab halftracks with AA guns like the SWS, etc.

..yeah..I realized about SdKfz 3 but...well...forgot about it in the same moment...Iam rechecking the equipment file for all available dates,traits and nopurchase,noupgrade flaggs as well I have to make sure all SS units upgrades and that obsolete material is not longer displayed in the purchase screen so poeple dont get as confused as in vanilla where up to the games end the Pz I,II and III and all the other obsolete equipment is always up for purchase when since half a century it wastn produced anymore... explodes my head right now

I discovered some of the skins I was not so hot about are now some of my favourites because the icons look so realistic and not like something a hobbyist would make up for a model contest because they were not complex and bright, they were subtle, uncomplicated and weathered.

So you obviously realized that I have choosen only weathered subtile skins without fancy and bright colors...for my eyes they look more realistic and plausible...I think this is the way to go ...thnx a bunch..Iam glad it crossed your mind to forward them to me

[alex0809]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I hope you will DISABLE upgrading paths for everything apart from Infantry and maybe some exceptions where it actually makes sense.

But for example it would be stupid if the German player - if he saved enough prestige - could just upgrade all his Panzer IV F1 to Panzer IV F2 the very day they become available. There is a reason why even the short-barreled Panzer III's and Panzer IV's remained in service for years and I hope this will be in game too. Same of course for vehicles like BF-109, anti-tank guns and.. basically everything else too.

[Chris10]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I hope you will DISABLE upgrading paths for everything apart from Infantry and maybe some exceptions where it actually makes sense.

But for example it would be stupid if the German player - if he saved enough prestige - could just upgrade all his Panzer IV F1 to Panzer IV F2 the very day they become available. There is a reason why even the short-barreled Panzer III's and Panzer IV's remained in service for years and I hope this will be in game too. Same of course for vehicles like BF-109, anti-tank guns and.. basically everything else too.

I understand your concerns and I share them...however there are certain problems with just disabling upgrades...this has to be thought thru religiously to find the best compromise.
Of course iam interested in avoiding poeple creating monocores of all best equipment..there is nothing which could be further from reality but
If I just disable upgrades for towed artillery and AT you cant upgrade their transports to Maultier in 1943 as the noupgrade flag disables the button
What I do instead is a make different series so its cheap to upgrade 3,7 Pak to 5cm Pak to 7,5 cm Pak but 8,8 Pak is a different series and requires full price.
For tanks and antitanks it depends on the series...
Big Artillery is nopurchase nayway and only certain amount of units given..if they are destroyed..well they are gone
Out of production equipment becomes unavailable for purchase too once the date passed..this will thin out greatly the upgrade and purchase screen.
Then all Pz will have their series within their own model and will be dead ends in case of the PzIV H or J (this is noupgrade)...
you can upgrade a PzIV F or F2 to Pz IV H or J or Panther D...BUT..you cant upgrade PzIV F or F2 to PzIV H or J and then to Panther G later...so players have to keep certain equipment as either they cant upgrade or do not have the prestige or have to wait for a later model since when they upgrade right now they cant upgrade any further
Tigers, Elephants,Nashorns and all this stuff is all nopurchase as these only were present in certain special units which are given on their time.
Same goes for all high tier planes like Tah,Do335,Jet-Planes and all this stuff..upgrades between Bf109F and G cost full price and G is no upgrade since K was low production number..same gooes for FW-190A...noupgrade...
all last models of planes are noupgrade...Ju-87D noupgrade...if you decided for Ju-87G well there you go...no upgrade
and so on..so no way just convert all to Me410 A...
Dunno if that makes any sense....I will have to make an upgrade table so poeple undertstand what they can upgrade and what not..after all its a prestige question too and the starting number of Wehrmacht Units is greatly beyond the german core slots so no way of just replacing lost units..after all it was an attrition war so better to withdraw weakend units far behind your lines to preserve them if you dont have the prestige to refill right now...a lost unit does not come back until reaching a minimum force of xxx core slots
Player will have xxx aux slots too but will need them for Garrison Infantry as partisans will show up in the Ucranian Hinterland and in Yugoslawia in great numbers...so aux slots have to be constantly used as garrison slots in order to prevent partisan units to run into unoccupied city hexes and roll up the front from behind...well...what do I tell you..its up to you if you buy an additional PzIV F or have 10 Garrison Infantry securing 10 city hexes....there is so many citys/villages that you wont have enough Infantry anyway so Partisans will require to drag additional forces from the front r they will cause major trouble if spreading wider...
The Partisan war cost the German Wehrmacht over 30 Divisions which had to be constanly used to secure the back area thus greatly reducing the front fighting power...dunno if that sounds any good

[RobertCL]

But for example it would be stupid if the German player - if he saved enough prestige - could just upgrade all his Panzer IV F1 to Panzer IV F2 the very day they become available

Chris talked about a limitation in the upgrade possibilities of Waffen SS units and I agree of course, after all he designs the campaign he wants.
However I would like to keep the possibility to upgrade Wehrmacht units like in the original game.

Commenting your sentence: Yes it would be stupid.

but what's next ?: disabling cheat codes ? Placing units at the exact location as they were before starting Barbarossa ? Naming each single unit ? other limitations ?

Sorry for me fun prevails on realism/historical accuracy. At least a balance should be found.

The creators of Panzer Corps have well understood this, this explains why cheat codes are still there. However I accept their sole limitation in game: the nr of available units in the core. Otherwise it would not look like WW2 if Germans had more units than Soviets...

I totally agree with you from a realistic standpoint but you cannot prevent players from playing another way if they want.
If I want to play with only Pz IV and best equipment in 1941 and 500.000 prestige points, I don't see the problem (personnally I upgrade my units only when they have 4 stars). It is also interesting to know if Germans had better chance with best equipment (and the answer is no, you still lose your best units it is only a matter of time facing the hordes...)
After one day work I want to destroy units, not to think long hours like in a chess game.
On your side you will not cheat and try to keep the units given by the campaign designer without upgrading them. I also like realism and play by the rules (I mean without cheating) when I am in vacation or during WE and fully relaxed.
Fine for both of us.

I think a mod should remain open to both types of players or to all moods of the same player.

Just my 2 cents.

It is true that the e-file should remove units produced years ago unlike vanilla e-file where in 1945 you can still purchase a Pz II...

Just to make sure if extra rule is used to prevent upgrade, at least new units could be purchased (so I purchase 10 new Panthers even if I cannot upgrade my Panzer IV to a panther)

------

Now my answer based on Chris' response:

Now I know:
1. Core forces will be extremely limited and replacing lost units is not a certainty even with unlimited prestige
2. Upgrade path will be limited per category (but a table will be needed to know what is possible and what is not in case of upgrade)
3. Strong units like Tigers could not be purchased even if the player has prestige. So in 1943 during the battle of Kursk I cannot buy a Panther or a Tiger!!!
4. e-file will be based on available units for the year in question (not old units).

Well I am happy to play vanilla campaigns with all cheating possibilities and far less restrictions...
So this will be a pure historical campaign...

I still like the new mod but I am less enthusiastic about it due to the rules of play, at least the map could be re-used in another mod with offical Slitherine game rules...

[Chris10]

Now I know:
1. Core forces will be extremely limited and replacing lost units is not a certainty even with unlimited prestige
2. Upgrade path will be limited per category (but a table will be needed to know what is possible and what is not in case of upgrade)
3. Strong units like Tigers could not be purchased even if the player has prestige. So in 1943 during the battle of Kursk I cannot buy a Panther or a Tiger!!!
4. e-file will be based on available units for the year in question (not old units).
Well I am happy to play vanilla campaigns with all cheating possibilities and far less restrictions...
So this will be a pure historical campaign...

Yes...I try to set the campaign into a historical comparison at least and having an all Panther-Tiger core would be no historical comparison whatsoever but...people can just remove the nopurchase flagg in the equipment file and done...
but I do build the campaign for the challenge...and hours of planning your move...after all its grand strategy...way easier to play than Gary Grigbys War in the East cause of the simple engine and rules but it offers the same feeling of epicness.
Iam not sure if the map is really suitable for a beer&preetzel pasttime since you have to many units to not pay attention.
To adress some of your points directly
1. Yes..otherwise it would be a simple steamroller...reinforcing and maintaing existing units...logistic and the need to preserve your units will creat additional need to be careful and you will have to employ rail transport in great number...this adds a whole new strategic dimension to the game...additionall it wouldnt make any sense to research and give the AI the correct production numbers for amor and planes over time when the player has unlimited access..that would be absurd,wouldnt it?
2. I will provide a table with upgrade paths
3. Dunno if there will be a Kursk at all but you will have the Tigers in their corresponding Regiments and they have their real heros,better stats and will kick ass..what else you wanna want ? Isnt it enough to have a few super units among the others ?
4. Yes

This sort of game can not be played with vanilla rules as vanilla does not touch strategic gaming but only tactical gaming. Iam 100% positive if
this is played with vanilla rules without restrictions you roll over the map in 40 turns and there is nothing which can prevent you from doin it.
It would render all the work and dedication I invest to build this thing worhtless.

but what's next ?: disabling cheat codes ? Placing units at the exact location as they were before starting Barbarossa ? Naming each single unit ? other limitations ?

You can use all the codes you want ...they cant be disabled anyway and I wouldnt wanted it...everybody has to decide for himself how he plays and if he follows the design which of course has a purpose or if you go down to the equipment file and remove all nopurchase or noupgrade flags...nothing easier than that with the batch function of notepadd++ but I tend to believe this would break the game and the fun...but you can do if you wish...

Just to make sure if extra rule is used to prevent upgrade, at least new units could be purchased (so I purchase 10 new Panthers even if I cannot upgrade my Panzer IV to a panther)

Actually you can do that but you need the prestige and you need to use the aux slots (I call them strategic reserve slots)...so you have to sacrifice security for the rear area cause you could have 50 garrison units for that price and the time the partisnas show up your 10 panthers will do you little good and they are to far away to help you out so the partisans thankfully accept your offer to occupy lots of unguarded city hexes and the russian AI will start spamming units there (no armor or AT/ART amor though) and you can imagine that this will greatly obstruct your efforts ...now you dont expect to have unlimited core and aux slots too,do you?

So this will be a pure historical campaign...

Jein...There are lots compromises to assure fun but that doesnt include an all ÜberUnit core and this is no beer&pretzle game..thats true, but I didnt wanted it that way...I want War in the East meets PanzerCorps ...
Something you sit down on a cold & rainy sunday for hours and hours without reading a 200 pages manual (War in the East,War in the Pacific) but still an epic strategy game.
For the quick pasttime there is vanilla ..no need to make more vanilla rule stuff cause there is Vanilla,GC39,40,41,42,43,44,45, there is AK and there will be Western GCs too...more than enough

[RobertCL]

OK Chris.

Thx for your quick response.
I can still cheat (even with strong limitations) so I am happy and I am very curious to see the final product especially because of your explanations.

Another way of playing ? why not?! Let's see!

I won't use notepad, I shall play by your rules (except prestige of course...)

[Chris10]

NEW TRANSPORTSYSTEM CHECKED AND WORKING


AA GUNS are (no screens)
ALL OPEL BLITZ AND MAULTIER FROM 1943 EXCEPT 8.8 and 12.8 Flak both SDKFZ 9 FAMO


INFANTRY: ONLY OPEL BLITZ AND SDKFZ-250 and 251
Obsolete Infantry not showing anymore in 43




AT GUNS: UP to PAK 7,5 Opel Blitz and from 1943 Maultier available, PAK 8,8 : SDKFZ 7




ARTILLERY: up to 10,5 cm Opel Blitz and from 1943 Maultier available , 15cm SDKFZ 7, 17K18,21CM and 24CM SDKFZ FAMO







.

[4kEY]

Chris, can I have the 24cm K3 icon? I would really-really like it.

[Chris10]

Since the question arose I will post the upgrade tables for equipment.
These tables and additional explanations will be accessible thru the library.
They will assure a mix core and disable some of the upgrades which always led to the
"always latest and highest calibre equipment core".
NoPurchase Units will be allocated in calculated numbers and are irreplacable if destroyed since they represent high tier, highly effective low production equipment.
Any questions feel free to ask

[airbornemongo101]

I'm impressed w/ the way you've done the no purchae and no upgrade. It's evident you did alot of research and put alot of time into the equipment file

Great job Chris

[Chris10]

I'm impressed w/ the way you've done the no purchae and no upgrade. It's evident you did alot of research and put alot of time into the equipment file

Great job Chris

thnx Bob...you are to kind...I actually have done this as a shoot from the hip using a bit of common sense...people see they can upgrade but now its a tricky thing as some paths are dead ends..so either you go for medium good mass equipment or continue with crappy equipment (and facing threat of loosing it) until better equipment is available. I think this adds a lot to immersion as all of a sudden new strategic and tactical needs arise cause you might not be able to wait for Panthers but you need to upgrade to PzIV H now in order to stop the growing threat from better russain armor

I extended tha artillery table with the range of each piece of equipment now. These values are mainly for gameplay compromise and not be understood as realistic since the scale is to big (1 hex = aprox.10km) to use realistic ranges

[LostAgain]

Just looking over the city maps again...this just keeps getting better and better.

[LostAgain]

Very exciting Chris. Can't wait. Let us know when you need beta testers.

Hell, I'll PAY you to beta test this game!!!

[nikivdd]

The unit rosters look exquisite! Hell, the mod should become an official add-on...i surely don't need the DLC's when i can play this beauty.
Anyway, i pitty your wrist after hours of mapmaking and your boiled eyes from staring at the e-file
You're doing great Chris, keep it up mate!

[airbornemongo101]

The unit rosters look exquisite! Hell, the mod should become an official add-on...i surely don't need the DLC's when i can play this beauty.
Anyway, i pitty your wrist after hours of mapmaking and your boiled eyes from staring at the e-file
You're doing great Chris, keep it up mate!

+1000

[Chris10]

Just looking over the city maps again...this just keeps getting better and better.

Very exciting Chris. Can't wait. Let us know when you need beta testers.

Hell, I'll PAY you to beta test this game!!!

The unit rosters look exquisite! Hell, the mod should become an official add-on...

+1000

You are all very kind guys..its always inspiring to know that others are fond of this idea too...

i surely don't need the DLC's when i can play this beauty.

Thats a huge compliment but the comparison is not very fair...
Lets not forget the DLCs are well played as a quick pasttime while here the strategic thinking on a continental scale
will play a major role...so playing a quick map in an hour break is not possible.
I think this should not be compared to regular PzC gameplay..its way deeper but still with the same simple engine.

Anyway, i pitty your wrist after hours of mapmaking and your boiled eyes from staring at the e-file
You're doing great Chris, keep it up mate

Thnx for encouragement..yeah...everything is fine now...I have a new mouse too ..I killed the wheel scrolling thru the layers...equipment file is done but have to amend all prices, amend general stats like GD and then rework movement and fuel to adjust to huge map...then I still have to rebuild a completely new efx file too...urggg...
yeah..I keep telling myself Rome wasnt build in a day either
Over time this has become way bigger than I initially planned.

In order to get away from the excel table I play around with scripting and see what can be done and what not..what works...what cant be done in the very same turn, what is suboptimal to run parralel or gets ignored if done and so on...when Iam pissed off I launch a shooter...
Just shot my way thru Hard Reset...very short game btw