Kingdom of the Isles Campaign

[TheGrayMouser]

Sorry to be obtuse but the cost of raising an army:

if in this season i build a 400point army, I pay 400 florins and 400 manpower, in the spring I will owe 100 florins to pay the troops...

[TheGrayMouser]

Ok , now that I have finally sat down to really plan stuff out, i think the real concern is $ not supply!

Anyways, before i finalize my picks, there are a couple more ?'s

the garrison Value
the rules states the garrison value is the largest army that can be "quartered" there.... Does that mean in a settlement to get the 25% supply usage?(ok nver mind found it, it does)

The county spreadsheet you sent me doesnt appear to line up w the rules
example we all have level 3 towns and the chart says that provides a 300 garrison but my personalized spreadsheet advises I only have 100 in that county , same with the hamlet.....


Can Castles , (as opposed to Forifications) be built with out a settlement in the county?

******
finally strategic concerns
I must confess i do not understand the second part of raid resolution (ist part makes sense):
What do these + numbers represent, income stolen, additional supplies destroyed, ??
also if you roll once each time for a faclity in the raided land, and it is a 5 plus that facility is downgraded or desptroyed, you could basically destroy an entire county that took literally thousands of florins and multiple turns to build with just a tiny raiding party the more a player has in a county the high % that his investment will be wiped! maybe a little too harsh?
Do forts and or castles prevent raiders destruction? (castles add Security which modifeis ther success chance to pillage supplies)

This is the chart that I am not sure about.... It also seams to imply that a raider can park on a "port" How do you garrison a port? a castle?, must a settlement be in the same hex as a port?

Facility Type/Grade 1 2 3 4 5+
Ungarrisoned settlement +10 +20 +30 +60 +120
Ungarrisoned Port +5 +10 +15 +30 +60
Farm +0 +5 +10 +15 +25

Sorry for all the questions at such a late stage.... i feel i am missing a page of the rules (actually I am, page 12 is blank )

Hey Keyth, maybe you could make an example of a county with a couple basic facilties and walk us thru step by step what would happen if a raider came thru ? (pictures would help too )
I feel if i fail to buy one wrong item it will be game over when a 10 ap army slides thru my lands like Tamerlane

[Blathergut]

"the garrison Value
the rules states the garrison value is the largest army that can be "quartered" there.... Does that mean in a settlement to get the 25% supply usage?(ok nver mind found it, it does)"


Dang...so I can't stick a 300pt army in a gr1 settlement and just sit there and burn 25% supply?

[Blathergut]

Now you have me confused (easy to do!).

Is garrison strength seperate from army? i.e., I have 300pts stationed in a gr1 settlement (hamlet). It also has an intrinsic 200 pt garrison?

Or is that 200 number the size of the army that can be garrisoned/stationed there so it only burns 25% supply?

If the former, if attacked, do I then have a 500 pt army to fight with?

[keyth]

Morning all!

I apologise for the confusion with garrisons - it was a fairly woolly concept that I only really fleshed out yesterday. I'll answer the broader questions first then get back to you about raids a bit later.

if in this season i build a 400point army, I pay 400 florins and 400 manpower, in the spring I will owe 100 florins to pay the troops...

Correct.

The county spreadsheet you sent me doesnt appear to line up w the rules
example we all have level 3 towns and the chart says that provides a 300 garrison but my personalized spreadsheet advises I only have 100 in that county , same with the hamlet.....

Also correct - garrisons were changed yesterday so I will need to send out new spreadsheets today!

Dang...so I can't stick a 300pt army in a gr1 settlement and just sit there and burn 25% supply?

No

Now you have me confused (easy to do!).

Is garrison strength seperate from army? i.e., I have 300pts stationed in a gr1 settlement (hamlet). It also has an intrinsic 200 pt garrison?

Or is that 200 number the size of the army that can be garrisoned/stationed there so it only burns 25% supply?

If the former, if attacked, do I then have a 500 pt army to fight with?

No, Yes, it's the latter. Think of the garrison value as the size of the container... it is the maximum army value that the settlement can support (gaining the 75% reduction in supply cost).

If there is a general mood that the new garrisoning rules are unworkable, then I am happy to revisit them. Maybe we get a few turns under our belts and see how we go? If game-play suffers from lack of resources, the numbers will definitely be changing, but I want the planning/economic side of the campaign to have some meaning... you shouldn't be able to field three 600 point armies all year round from turn one!

[keyth]

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, a yes/no vote in convocation still costs votes. You can abstain (0 votes) or have one or more yes/no votes... so you could vote 'Yes 5 votes'.

[keyth]

I have re-worked raids a little - let me know what you think.

New Concept - County stores. This is the total value of the supply produced by the county. So a county with a grade 1 farm in it would have a county stores value of 200. Die roll as before.

0 Attacker loses 10% AP
1 – 2 Attacker loses 5% AP, 25% County stores
3 – 4 50% County stores
5 – 6 100% County stores
7+ 150% County stores

On a result of 1 or greater, the HC rolls a six-sided die for each facility in a raided county, modified as follows:
-1 for each point of Security
+1 for greater Attacker Espionage score
-1 for greater Defender Espionage score

< 0 No effect
1 – 2 +10% stores
3 – 4+20% stores
5 +30% stores
6 +40% stores/Facility degraded

A successful raid will also lower morale by one point.

[Blathergut]

k...will have to rework my first turn..will look at it tonight and resend

[keyth]

Please note that the numbers for raiding have changed (only the %s)

Raid example:

Roberto Dos Bastardos hops across the border with a 300 point army to raid Randomville, which has a grade 1 farm and grade 1 castles. This results in security 2 and county stores 200. There is no opposition. Roberto's faction has an espionage proficiency of 10, while the defender has 8.

Roberto is allowed to raid because his 300 point army is more than the security x 100, 200 in this case.

Rolling for raid resolution, Roberto gets a 5, plus 1 for his greater espionage so total 6. We check the table and he gets 75% of the county stores, 150 supply points.
He now rolls once for each facility on the second table:

Farm: Rolls 4, subtracts 2 for security and adds one for espionage, total 3. This gets an extra 20% stores (40)
Castles: Rolls 2, subtracts 2 for security and adds one for espionage, total 1. This gets an extra 10% stores (20)

So Roberto has got 210 supply points for his troubles, and the defending faction loses a point of morale.

[keyth]

And finally (well, maybe finally )... I have updated the spreadsheets with the new garrison values and will send them out now. Also note that there is a number on the right-hand side of each county's title bar. This is the morale of the county specifically, and starts at the same level as your 'national' morale. Raiding will decrease this value and some card effects may also cause it to fluctuate. Should a county drop to zero morale, there may be unrest or rebellion. Things that affect national morale also affect local morale.


*** EDIT *** Local morale added to rules in the 'Counties & Their Improvement'

[TheGrayMouser]

Sounds good, will upate and send my buys tonite, i promise

Oh the Sir Roberto example Will facilities still be destroyed down/ graded based on a raid per type of facility?? It just seems maybe a little too destructive just because a county has a farm a town and a port that there are 3 chances for those to be destoyed/downgraded, there would be a lot of dough invested in these items...

Also what is not clear is the raider: do they physically need to be in the hex with the facility? Can a raider change their mind and become an occupier or lay siege if they enter a county and discover there is no garrison?

[keyth]

Oh the Sir Roberto example Will facilities still be destroyed down/ graded based on a raid per type of facility?? It just seems maybe a little too destructive just because a county has a farm a town and a port that there are 3 chances for those to be destoyed/downgraded, there would be a lot of dough invested in these items...

Also what is not clear is the raider: do they physically need to be in the hex with the facility? Can a raider change their mind and become an occupier or lay siege if they enter a county and discover there is no garrison?

Part of me thinks that you should guard your 'facility-rich' counties if you don't want them raided, but I also see that raiding could become an overly simple and cheap way to damage an enemy faction's economy... how about the risk of a reduction in Influence if you raid? The nobility would see it as underhanded and the commons, well, they would be the ones a the sharp end of a raiding war!

I think that raiding should only affect those facilities with are not tied to a specific hex - farms and castles. The 'In My Head (TM)' version of raiding avoids major settlements and strips the countryside of everything that isn't nailed down and burning everything that is. This solves the 'does the raider need to be in hex' issue too.

If an army is ordered to raid, it must attempt to do so unless prevented by a third-party. What you do in following seasons is up to you.

[TheGrayMouser]

I agree on concept of raids basically being fast moving forces that are damaging the enemies lands via harrying , burning crops carrying off cattle etc... basically making the commoner folks miserable and hurting the enemies basic capacity to wage war
Its not so much what the raider gains, it is what the raidee loses

I like the idea of of the drop in supplies which represents literally grain etc ready for usage desptoyed or carried off, and the idea that a truly succesful raid will damage/degrade your farming levels...
Not so sure about castle/towns forts or ports being effected as raiders would be trying to avoid those...
Maybe a truly succesful raid could kill off some manpower of the county... Dead peasants means less infrastructure to support a knight!

[TheGrayMouser]

One last (yeah right!) question

I just noticed when I gave you the coordinate for my port I gave you a land hex #..... Obviusly most ports will have 2 or even 3 water hex sides... Will this matter for movement purposes ie will the fleet exist in a water hex that is "touching" the port graphic?? or is the port "in" the land hex coordinate
Hope this makes sense (I think if you look at the map as you ponder my question it will make sense why i am asking)

[Triarii]

Please note that the numbers for raiding have changed (only the %s)

Raid example:

Roberto Dos Bastardos hops across the border with a 300 point army to raid Randomville, which has a grade 1 farm and grade 1 castles. This results in security 2 and county stores 200. There is no opposition. Roberto's faction has an espionage proficiency of 10, while the defender has 8.

Roberto is allowed to raid because his 300 point army is more than the security x 100, 200 in this case.

Rolling for raid resolution, Roberto gets a 5, plus 1 for his greater espionage so total 6. We check the table and he gets 75% of the county stores, 150 supply points.
He now rolls once for each facility on the second table:

Farm: Rolls 4, subtracts 2 for security and adds one for espionage, total 3. This gets an extra 20% stores (40)
Castles: Rolls 2, subtracts 2 for security and adds one for espionage, total 1. This gets an extra 10% stores (20)

So Roberto has got 210 supply points for his troubles, and the defending faction loses a point of morale.

Keyth

I think this is an improvement but can we clarify three things.

The first I think is clear :-

It still costs 2MP to raid i.e. to roll once on table 1.

So Robert de Bastardos moves in Spring from his lair in South Middleton
L8 to M9 2MP
M9 to N8 2MP
(Raid N8 2MP)
N8 to M9 2MP

His 2MP in N8 entitle him to roll once on table 1 as per your example.

If RdB chose to do this
L8 to M9 2MP
M9 to N8 2MP
(Raid N8 2MP)
(Raid N8 2MP)

He gets an extra +1 on the effect die roll (but is also more likely to be caught and dealt his just reward for raiding in Connaught)

The second and third are suggestions for clarification on table 2 :-

The only facilities that are rolled for on table 2 are :-
Farms
Un-garrisoned settlements
and
Ports in a separate hex to a garrisoned settlement or castle. (i.e.un-garrisoned ports)

And

The percentage values in table 2 are of the Supply value (Tax Value for Settlements) of the Facility being rolled for not of the whole county.

This means that it is only Settlements, Farms and Ports that yield supply points and can be damaged in raiding.

I think that we should say the other facilities, castles, roads fortifications etc would not yield supplies. If we do not the result of a raid could be too expensive to the raided even if they have invested AP in a small garrison and the damage could be too punitive – as Gray Mouser suggested.
I suppose – even though this is fun - historically castles and towns with garrisons were avoided – they shut their doors - and tearing up roads was in the future.
[[/i]

[Blathergut]

From the rules:

• Garrison – A garrison is an army that is billeted in a settlement. It exerts no ZOC but will defend the settlement should it be besieged. The supply cost of a garrison is 50% of the army’s point’s value regardless of season. Taking troops to ‘winter quarters’ in a garrison is a good way of reducing supply requirements.

Are we going with 25% supply usage?

Am slowly getting the hang of this stuff...i think!!

[TheGrayMouser]

Ahrr, understanding the rules is for the weak, just sent my builds and damned the torpedoes!

[Blathergut]

see how long your men stay with you in that 500pt army you built

am going with 100 pts of very big guys with fast feet!!

[keyth]

From the rules:

• Garrison – A garrison is an army that is billeted in a settlement. It exerts no ZOC but will defend the settlement should it be besieged. The supply cost of a garrison is 50% of the army’s point’s value regardless of season. Taking troops to ‘winter quarters’ in a garrison is a good way of reducing supply requirements.

Are we going with 25% supply usage?

Am slowly getting the hang of this stuff...i think!!

I think we go with 25% for garrisons and see how it works out. With the 'garrison' attribute for settlements and castles it should prevent huge cheap-to-maintain armies lounging around, while allowing you to maintain a modest force at a reasonable cost.

With regard to Triarius' suggestion for raiding, I like the direction this is going... I'll post a re-write of raiding and its outcomes later on and we can take it from there.

[TheGrayMouser]

Keyth, quick question re move points:

Is there a disembark cost for army fleet action?

Lets say I start an army in the port hex with fleet, a new turn starts and had given orders to load into fleet , fleet moves maximum move poinst to an enemy hex... Can my army "disembark" and have its full alotment of movepoints in that same turn?