Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
rbodleyscott
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by rbodleyscott »

GShock112 wrote:One of the beaten Takeda armies, chased around, ended up in Osaka (which is neutral) and, during the winter season, it went from 190pt to 492pt.
I suppose it was refitted... since it can't be reinforced in this system, but it drew manpower from a neutral province (which is also completely cut out from their territories).

Concept: out of supply army, in neutral territory, becomes stronger instead of becoming weaker... during winter. ;)
Osaka is not neutral, it is one of the anti-Oda provinces. You will see it has a green border, not a grey border.

Armies only get refitted when in friendly territory.

So the beaten army retreated to friendly territory and was refitted during the winter.
GShock112 wrote:the result of 4 victories and +1 provinces for me is "slight advantage" for me
This is due to the economic issue, which we are in the process of resolving.

Incidentally, yesterday I play-tested the Tenka Fubu campaign (using the economic parameters suggested above) as the anti-Oda side on Daimyo difficulty. I won the campaign after 3 battles, 2 of which I won, 1 was autoresolved which I lost. As it happens my army in all of these battles was mainly militia (1 field army unit plus local militia/auxiliary units). I always try to leave 1 low or average quality field army unit in each of my front-line provinces to repel (with the aid of the local militia) any tentative enemy invasion.

Currently the plan is to release changed parameters for this campaign in patch 1.2.8 (the next patch but one) after further testing to make sure we have not gone too far the other way - perhaps we have. We will do more testing to find the optimal parameters before releasing the patch.

The reason this is an issue in this particular campaign is because the map (excluding impassable neutral provinces) is smaller, so the Off Map income (which we did not reduce compared to the other campaigns) has a much more significant effect in bolstering a losing side than it does in the other campaigns on larger maps. Well, like everyone else, we live and learn, and we will be correcting the issue in a patch.
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jomni
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by jomni »

The hilly region of Osaka is home of the Ikko-Ikki (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishiyama_Hongan-ji). They were supported by the Mori clan (another source of off map income).
They are a primary force of the anti-Oda alliance. Since this hilly province generates more income compared to the other mountainous provinces of the anti-Oda, it may be worthwhile to take it early in the campaign when playing Oda.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by GShock112 »

I simply didn't know that region was enemy in this campaign (I knew the history of course)... I'm now besieging it.
I've switched tactics because even though I'm not fond of cat and mouse (I think armies should be destroyed and part of the men sent back home, divided equally among all friendly provinces) there's no other way at the moment.

So, I went back to the previous turn via autosave (shouldn't there be an Ironman mode?) to check on this army in Osaka... it has just 157 points but the province will yeld 300 auxilliary points. During the late autumn I moved back my main force to Gifu to prevent attrition during a siege of indefinite length. The tattered Takeda army in Osaka went to siege Kyoto but it had to fall back to Osaka during winter quarters... as expected.

2 months later my newly spawned army wrecked that army (refitted + auxilliaries) which fled to Kyoto, chased by my army in Gifu it went back to Anotsu. I split my new army in Osaka into 2 forces.
One will siege Osaka and the other will keep the chase to Anotsu (it will run away and I will have to keep chasing).

During the battle in Osaka I spotted a strange AI behavior with a cavalry unit which was sent far away on a flanking run against my Honjin... it actually rode past the 90° turn to my honjin but as the battle was raging, it changed plans... but too late. The AI basically played with 1 less unit because of this. Maybe it should be taught to try for the Honjin only when it has a bigger numerical advantage (the army was tattered with 157 (+300 auxilliaries) points vs my new army of about 500pts so it really barely had the strength left to fight, so much for attacking my Honjin). This is important.

In regards with the Honjin itself, the CiC was basically signalling all over the place so it should not be allowed to be deployed in the woods (where it was during this battle).

Another thing I noticed is that the AI will rather not charge a unit which is in fortified position but it will still stay in touch with it, doing nothing. This way one of your fortified units holds 2 of theirs while not fighting. These 2 AI units can be flanked and shot at at any time.

Also, The AI teppo once retreated. They really left the combat area to go back to their side (spawn location). This really had the effect of making a non-effective combat unit out of the battle before the battle was solved (the only difference with a rout is that it doesn't count in the routing % requirements). Since it's a missile unit... it could have stayed and shot doing some damage, no? Why does the AI do so?

Please keep in mind my suggestion to randomize the duel and command capabilities of all generals at the start of each campaign... with randomization factors that can be slight or random but still hidden (and when I say hidden I also mean hidden in the files). ;)

All in all the Campaign is evolving in a more realistic way this time because I didn't allow the AI to run free, forsaking conquest. I still won all battles so far but the situation is pretty balanced.

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Late Spring 1571
Takeda: 105 Anotsu, 398 Ichiodani, 367 + 125 Takayama, 112 Kanazawa
Oda: 215 + 211 Osaka, 452 Kyoto, 416 Gifu, 316 Ueda (which is the only Takeda province in my control)
Balance: Oda advantage (roughly 500 points)

As I said in the beginning, had the ability to destroy armies on the run be present, Takeda should have lost its army in Osaka (now in Anotsu) last year and now it would have had the funds and manpower to restore its armies in Kanazawa and Takayama to combat power. Even if the army in Osaka was not lost... the AI shouldn't have refitted it and it should have refitted those, instead.

No matter the mess here, the game didn't CTD ever again but I have made a .lnk on the desktop to the log so I'll be sure to post it should it happen again. :)
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by GShock112 »

Updates - This is the situation in Late Autumn 1571.

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I left the 211 army to besiege Osaka and pursued the Takeda army in Anotsu with the 215 for the Cat and Mouse game meanwhile we had a 13.000 vs 9000 battle in Gifu where I was outnumbered but still won.
I think the AI was too aggressive this time and didn't exploit its numbers but, most importantly, didn't give its ranged units time to plunder my first line. As I said elsewhere it looks like the AI can be taken more easily by a patient player who takes the charge and then counterattacks. The side with more firepower should attack with no haste (gotta teach that to the AI and I know it's not easy).

If the Honjin boosts morale, the side that doesn't move far from his Honjin has the advantage. The AI came to me on a flat landscape, my troops were more experienced and it lost... if it had refitted its 2 armies instead of refitting the "mouse" this most likely wouldn't have happened.

Anyway... the yellow and red arrows and numbers illustrate the path taken by the mouse. Move #3 shows after I attacked Hamamatsu from Okazaki, the mouse actually retreated through my lines back to Okazaki... and then back again until it got finally to Osaka again.

Cat and mouse double problem: AI prioritized the mouse instead of refitting its 2 battered armies and, at the same time, attacked a more experienced enemy losing instead of going defensive.

I insist in saying the solution is not in the economics but PLEASE before touching it let me play the Takeda first. :)
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by jomni »

GShock112 wrote: During the battle in Osaka I spotted a strange AI behavior with a cavalry unit which was sent far away on a flanking run against my Honjin... it actually rode past the 90° turn to my honjin but as the battle was raging, it changed plans... but too late. The AI basically played with 1 less unit because of this. Maybe it should be taught to try for the Honjin only when it has a bigger numerical advantage (the army was tattered with 157 (+300 auxilliaries) points vs my new army of about 500pts so it really barely had the strength left to fight, so much for attacking my Honjin). This is important.
Yes it usually ignores the honjin even when successfully sneaking behind as it found other priority targets to attack. The flank move is mainly due to terrain I think. As horses are programmed to stay on clear terrain as much as possible and continue on it's course then make a sharp turn to centre until it actually sees a target.
In regards with the Honjin itself, the CiC was basically signalling all over the place so it should not be allowed to be deployed in the woods (where it was during this battle).
Logically it shouldn't.
Another thing I noticed is that the AI will rather not charge a unit which is in fortified position but it will still stay in touch with it, doing nothing. This way one of your fortified units holds 2 of theirs while not fighting. These 2 AI units can be flanked and shot at at any time.
This is self-preservation. It considers the odds of winning. Of course even a human won't charge head-on on forts. It works the other way around too. Your units are also pinned without fighting. If the AI has a big numerical advantage, then you are the one that is screwed and not him.
Also, The AI teppo once retreated. They really left the combat area to go back to their side (spawn location). This really had the effect of making a non-effective combat unit out of the battle before the battle was solved (the only difference with a rout is that it doesn't count in the routing % requirements). Since it's a missile unit... it could have stayed and shot doing some damage, no? Why does the AI do so?
It's light foot so it runs away when charged upon. So you can chase it off the map but the status is not routed of course as it can return. But can you confirm that it returned on the AI army's rear instead of the map side where it retreated to?
Please keep in mind my suggestion to randomize the duel and command capabilities of all generals at the start of each campaign... with randomization factors that can be slight or random but still hidden (and when I say hidden I also mean hidden in the files). ;)
Duel is already randomised with a bell curve. This means most will come out with skill of 4. It is to simulate the rarity of the other. Do you want player options on randomisation?
I insist in saying the solution is not in the economics but PLEASE before touching it let me play the Takeda first. :)
Congratulations. I will tell Richard to keep the economy changes on hold. I think your first run went well and you actually had to work on your victories as opposed to just sending a larger army against the enemy all the time if we did the economy tweaks. That's just too easy according to Richard's tests. And the number of battles fought seems to be right. A campaign that ends too quickly is no fun at all.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by GShock112 »

jomni wrote: Yes it usually ignores the honjin even when successfully sneaking behind as it found other priority targets to attack. The flank move is mainly due to terrain I think. As horses are programmed to stay on clear terrain as much as possible and continue on it's course then make a sharp turn to centre until it actually sees a target.
The AI should be taught that going for the Honjin is not practical unless there's a big advantage in odds. That unit was much needed elsewhere.
jomni wrote:This is self-preservation. It considers the odds of winning. Of course even a human won't charge head-on on forts. It works the other way around too. Your units are also pinned without fighting. If the AI has a big numerical advantage, then you are the one that is screwed and not him.
Those "camped units" were shot to death and rearcharged in the end, due to being idle... the problem is twosided but the player knows how to counter it, the AI seemingly doesn't. This goes side to side with the AI not really exploiting superior firepower. Better to take on the fortified unit by missile and use one infantry to pin it, thus leaving the other infantry free to fight. Use 2 infantry only with vastly superior numbers (it's this "numbers" that has to be tweaked up, I think).
jomni wrote: It's light foot so it runs away when charged upon. So you can chase it off the map but the status is not routed of course as it can return. But can you confirm that it returned on the AI army's rear instead of the map side where it retreated to?
The Teppo was seen "retreating" and not routing. Earlier in some other thread, I was explained it's a move that is played when the unit would autobreak if charged again due to previous losses. I am not sure about these losses but I knew that a charged teppo would evade... not retreat so it's got to be something else. This teppo did retreat, it moved back quite far from any possible target, towards the center of the map, thus effectively this unit was put out of commission by this move (can the retreat be stopped so the unit remains 1 move from shooting range?).

It was on the center, it retreated back towards the center but the battle ended soon thereafter as the teppo was still retreating. I am sure the Teppo retreated without being charged. It's not evade, it's retreat.

The 4 issues of honjin, fortification, missile superiority and teppo retreats are weak spots for the AI logics that hopefully can be tweaked.
The 5th is the priority in refitting given to a "mouse" army rather than the Takeda frontline armies: that was the campaign losing choice for the AI.

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jomni wrote:Duel is already randomised with a bell curve. This means most will come out with skill of 4. It is to simulate the rarity of the other. Do you want player options on randomisation?
I wouldn't want players to find out the enemy generals' C/D values, so that it's easy for them to match the right general against each of the enemy generals. So I'm saying if these values are randomized a player will never know the values of the guys he's facing and can't do that. If, for example, Nobuhide (which is obviously CiC since he's the Clan Leader) always starts with a good C rating I'll never replace him but if I know that value is randomized (no randomization, total random or slight random from historical values option) I have to watch that rating and eventually replace him. That adds up to the choices the player is entitled to in order to get the best out of its army. Gary Grisby's wbts system is sound: at the beginning you don't even know your own randomized values until you actually use them.
That makes every campaign different. So possibly the 3 randomization options and the hidden option would be a good idea. Problem is you have no control over your pool of generals to assign them to units currently.
I insist in saying the solution is not in the economics but PLEASE before touching it let me play the Takeda first. :)
jomni wrote:Congratulations. I will tell Richard to keep the economy changes on hold. I think your first run went well and you actually had to work on your victories as opposed to just sending a larger army against the enemy all the time if we did the economy tweaks. That's just too easy according to Richard's tests. And the number of battles fought seems to be right. A campaign that ends too quickly is no fun at all.
Result is 7 victories 1 defeat and 600 prestige. Takeda just surrendered.

Rather than touching the economics, I would focus on

1) those 5 AI logic problems:
- tactical plan with superior firepower (AI no rush to melee).
- tactical plan with superior number of units (tweak UP the requirement for AI to push for the Honjin).
- tactical plan with assaulting fortifications (AI no rush to melee, use missile to weaken the unit, tweak UP the requirement in unit numbers to tie 2 units vs 1 fortified).
- understand what's going on with Teppo retreats (make them retreat to a firing position instead of going back too far).
- tweak priority given to refitting armies too battered to be combat effective or successful in a siege.
- tweak priority given to refitting armies according to the strategic situation (if AI is losing it must refit its frontline armies and play defensively hoping to open opportunity for counterattack).

2) the strategic changes:
- disband armies in enemy territory when they are too weak to be combat or siege effective, returning part of their manpower to the home provinces.
- devise intervention (% of success in roll based on each army's Honjins' C value) of armies in provinces that border a battle location (from both offense and defense side) as reinforcements that arrive to battle piecemeal (vanguards arrive in normal state, the rest arrive in disrupted state because of fatigue).
- armies that participate to battle lose 1AP movement if only the vanguard joined and 3AP movement if core/entire support army joins.

This is more or less what I had in mind.
While the 1) changes would make the AI a lot more competitive, the 2) changes are what is really needed to put offensive manouvers into the big difficulty and slow down the conquest. The defender is almost always bordered by friendly armies who could support: if Oda attacks Takayama from Gifu he can support (and it's not 100% sure) from Ueda but Takeda can support from Ichiodani and Kanazawa so you see attacker is always in a harder spot while neither side truly knows how many will actually join the fight.

I'm going to play Takeda today.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by rbodleyscott »

Light units will retreat if they are either fragmented (in which case they must test cohesion if charged and will rout instead of evading if they fail), or if they are close to autobreaking and there are any enemy units that could move into range to shoot at them, which would be likely to autobreak them. This is not a flaw in the AI, clearly retreating is better than being routed.

All player and AI armies in friendly territory are automatically refitted each winter. So all of the AI armies would have been refitted, not just the "mouse" army.

Your other suggestions for the battlefield AI are sound, but may be hard to implement. We will certainly look closely at the possibilities.

The strategic suggestions are also interesting, and easier to implement than the suggested AI changes. We will give due consideration to implementing them.

The Honjin does not boost morale. Only generals actually in close combat boost morale of nearby friendly units. However loss of the Honjin adds a disproportionate amount to the routed % (3.33 times as much as a medium-sized infantry unit)
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by GShock112 »

rbodleyscott wrote:Light units will retreat if they are either fragmented (in which case they must test cohesion if charged and will rout instead of evading if they fail), or if they are close to autobreaking and there are any enemy units that could move into range to shoot at them, which would be likely to autobreak them. This is not a flaw in the AI, clearly retreating is better than being routed.
Can the retreat be stopped at safe distance so the unit may recover morale (if roll is successful) and then come back to the fight?
rbodleyscott wrote:All player and AI armies in friendly territory are automatically refitted each winter. So all of the AI armies would have been refitted, not just the "mouse" army.
I see the "Refit" button, it doesn't appear to be automatic and it does cost money/manpower am I wrong? If these costs were applied to useful armies and have non useful armies disbanded instead, I think it would be better but in any case the Takeda AI should have reinfoced the other 2 battered armies. Well... we'll see how it goes with the Takeda now. :)
rbodleyscott wrote:Your other suggestions for the battlefield AI are sound, but may be hard to implement. We will certainly look closely at the possibilities.

The strategic suggestions are also interesting, and easier to implement than the suggested AI changes. We will give due consideration to implementing them.
Yes I know it's hard but I guess it's hard in both cases. It's bad to see the AI waste units with those far flanking manouvers and it's also problematic when the AI has an advantage in firepower that doesn't get exploited. Unfortunately, missiles have no targets when everyone is in melee ahead of them (which is just and proper). I hope something can be done there because many times I think I would have lost had the AI used the right tactic.
rbodleyscott wrote:The Honjin does not boost morale. Only generals actually in close combat boost morale of nearby friendly units. However loss of the Honjin adds a disproportionate amount to the routed % (3.33 times as much as a medium-sized infantry unit)
I happen to think that without the CiC the various sub-generals could not coordinate for a battleplan. The loss of the Honjin should be very bad for morale as it's hard to reach and hard to kill so the prize should be bigger imo.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by rbodleyscott »

GShock112 wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:Light units will retreat if they are either fragmented (in which case they must test cohesion if charged and will rout instead of evading if they fail), or if they are close to autobreaking and there are any enemy units that could move into range to shoot at them, which would be likely to autobreak them. This is not a flaw in the AI, clearly retreating is better than being routed.
Can the retreat be stopped at safe distance so the unit may recover morale (if roll is successful) and then come back to the fight?
If they recover morale, and are not close to autobreaking, they will come back.
rbodleyscott wrote:All player and AI armies in friendly territory are automatically refitted each winter. So all of the AI armies would have been refitted, not just the "mouse" army.
I see the "Refit" button, it doesn't appear to be automatic and it does cost money/manpower am I wrong?
See manual section 19.7

All player and AI armies in friendly territory are automatically refitted each winter. The cost is automatically deducted from the treasury (even if this results in it going into negative values) and the manpower is deducted from throughout the side's territory.

The Refit button can be used to refit armies during the campaigning season if funds are available. The AI does not avail itself of this facilty, and nor do most players because they tend to spend all the money in the treasury in the Early Spring turn.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by jomni »

GShock112 wrote: I wouldn't want players to find out the enemy generals' C/D values, so that it's easy for them to match the right general against each of the enemy generals. So I'm saying if these values are randomized a player will never know the values of the guys he's facing and can't do that. If, for example, Nobuhide (which is obviously CiC since he's the Clan Leader) always starts with a good C rating I'll never replace him but if I know that value is randomized (no randomization, total random or slight random from historical values option) I have to watch that rating and eventually replace him. That adds up to the choices the player is entitled to in order to get the best out of its army. Gary Grisby's wbts system is sound: at the beginning you don't even know your own randomized values until you actually use them.
That makes every campaign different. So possibly the 3 randomization options and the hidden option would be a good idea. Problem is you have no control over your pool of generals to assign them to units currently.
Ah you want player stats hidden. The enemy stats are already hidden by default. We kept the player general stats visible such that the player can make proper decisions on placement and usage. If hidden, then the player may just not bother tracking them and leave everything to chance. A daimyo should have an idea of the capabilities of his generals though constant contact, combat experience, and drills.
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by GShock112 »

If armies are auto-refitted during winter and costs deducted then this is another major reason towards finding a realistic way to have armies disbanded when taking serious losses and being forced to retreat to enemy territory.

I think that is the exact moment the check should take place because the retreat itself costs losses to an army already on the run with supply wagons either lost or unable to reach it (lines cut by the enemy). The army is entering enemy territory with garrisons, patrols, risks of ambushes, through a forced route and forced march with extreme difficulties in foraging (which is not the same situation for a winning army strong in spirit and numbers entering enemy territory).

This change would release important manpower and funds to the AI/players for the raising of a new army when taxes are collected and it would also address the fact that most armies are photocopies of pre-existing armies (due to either lack of funds after paying the mandatory units or manpower). We could have part of the manpower of the disbanded army return to the provinces, the upkeep would be saved and the winning player could release his "cat" army and keep his territories safe from pillaging. Both sides would benefit from this policy.

In regards with the Honjin, I only lost it twice but I never lost the battle when I did. Perhaps the % routed could be just slightly tweaked up from 3.33 to 5 but I can't really relate to that because as I said, I only lost it twice (and killed once, in the tutorial).
What I can say is I didn't see an appraisable change... still... when a sub-general is lost, all its group needs to pass checks and I'm wondering if the CiC is lost maybe all sub-generals should pass checks too so that the CiC's loss could be indirectly transferred to all the army.

What's problematic is the attitude of the AI which does attack the Honjin when it should not but I've never seen it defending it. There have been times I could have killed it but decided to use troops to fight and win the battle instead. With or without changes in this mechanic that's a cause of concern to me.

It's likely that if the problem of AI units flanking far and being out of the whole battle is solved and if the AI starts to use missile superiority and attack fortified units the proper way the player will actually never be in a position to kill the AI's Honjin... so I guess it's all secondary for the moment.

In regards with hidden statistics:
Gary Grisby's WBTS has a system (optional) where it takes some time for the stats to become visible to the player and he's always looking to assign the right general for the task.
Neither the player nor his opponent knows a statistic until it is discovered.

For the retraining of units it just takes time but for combat... i.e. offense, you need that general to attack a few times before his offensive capabilities are revealed (at that point you may choose to sack him or retain him). That is intriguing (You can opt for Historical, semi random and random) and of course both realistic and risky.

On one side your Johnston could be no match for Mc Dowell and you need to find out before 1st Bull Run happens or it would be an early catastrophe for CSA.
But on the other side this means every time you start a campaign you never know, so every campaign is different.

Add to this, the values are masked.
You can't go to the files and look at your Johnston or at your enemy's Mc Dowell: every time these 2 meet (actually every time anyone meets anyone else) it's a surprise... a possible discovery and a possible choice of sack/retain as counter-move in the next turn.

In SJ we have 2 stats, the CR and the DR.
A player who knows that particular general has a DR of 7 and who has played the other side, knows what the DR of the opposing generals is and he has a critical and unfair advantage... and since stats are not randomized, there's no point in hiding them because they are already known: this means that particular general will ALWAYS win against that particular opposing general.

Not all those who were known to be good generals actually performed well during the wars that were fought from the dawn of ages till nowadays. Ewell had never underperformed but he failed at Gettysburg (with disastrous consequences). Longstreet had to be replaced several times during the war due to nervous breakdowns (same with Sherman). Stuart was possibly the greatest cavalry officer that ever rode but he was out at Gettysburg. What about Grant... regarded as a drunkard and then emerging as the winner?
(I could carry on for ages, I'm an expert of SJ and also of the American CW periods)

Every situation is a new one, every subordinate adds or subtracts and every battle is an incognita. That incognita is the randomization but it can't be a real incognita without the hiding of the stats. ;)

We can't hide the CR because it's needed to calculate the unit's range to the sub-general (you've got to see it on the battlefield) but we could use a MR (morale rating) which goes hidden (and possibly randomized by option) for a number of battles where the check to reveal it to the player becomes increasingly easier to pass. The same should go for the DR... this is not a duel in a temple courtyard but on the battlefield and anything may happen, unrelated to the general's skill (one of the generals might have been wounded PRIOR to the duel taking place or he might be more fatigued).

So, again, after a few duels, the player would know (if the general has not yet been killed in the meanwhile) if he's a good duellist. He would also possibly know if his MR is valuable and regardless of his DR he could choose to keep him safe).

But in order to add a system of this kind, the player should have access to the pool of generals and be able to review, select, assign and sack those he thinks proper. That would be the task of the Daimyo, the only one who can't be sacked... the one the player basically is impersonating in the campaign. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a player to hire a ninja to target a particular general... provided he can afford it. ;)
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Re: Considerations on the Tenka Fubu Campaign

Post by rbodleyscott »

Armies are only autorefitted when in friendly territory.

Generals stats are randomized in the campaigns.
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