Chinese Armies

[Cerberias]

Sorry but I can't seem to find the page where it says that they count as being in cover behind fortifications.. don't mean to doubt but yeah that sounds very good.

[nikgaukroger]

Sorry but I can't seem to find the page where it says that they count as being in cover behind fortifications.. don't mean to doubt but yeah that sounds very good.

IIRC it's (oddly) in the definition of good going in hte glossary.

Oh, and it isn't "in cover", its not in good going - a difference I'm sure you appreciate

[dave_r]

In the glossary believe it or not - page 135.

"POAs and Cohesion Test modifiers only applying in "open terrain" do not count:
- If the base claiming the POA or causing the Cohesion Test even partly enters uneven, rough or difficult terrain
- If attacking or defending fortifications or a riverbank"

[Cerberias]

Cool thanks. Can you move and then set them up with drilled troops or must you be stationary to set them up? How do you think you'd use them? Sit at 6 inches attempting to shoot the cavalry until they came into the restricted zone and then attempt to deploy them or deploy them ahead of time.. Lots of forethought I guess depending on the situation. Thanks again.

[footslogger]

Cool thanks. Can you move and then set them up with drilled troops or must you be stationary to set them up? How do you think you'd use them? Sit at 6 inches attempting to shoot the cavalry until they came into the restricted zone and then attempt to deploy them or deploy them ahead of time.. Lots of forethought I guess depending on the situation. Thanks again.

I think crossbows only have a 4" range.

[nikgaukroger]

I think crossbows only have a 4" range.

6MU max for foot Xbow, 4 for mounted - just like Bows.

[footslogger]

I think crossbows only have a 4" range.

6MU max for foot Xbow, 4 for mounted - just like Bows.

I started to say that my QRS needs updating, but now that I look at it I see that it's not the QRS that has a problem.

[Cerberias]

Yeah, 6 inch, but with only three rear support shooters you'll only get 1.5 dice for shooting at long range from a BG of six, not really enough to worry most enemies... using the forts might be a bit hard, come within 6 and the enemy just moves within five, drop portable fortifications and the cav or whatever just move away and you're left to pick up forts or abandon them and they wont be in charge range... hmm..

Anyone got any suggestions?

[davidandlynda]

You count full bases if the rear rank is the 1st shooting rank so 3 bases shooting,one thought that struck me with this is when you lose a base which in a mixed group will almost certainly be a front rank base ,the rear rank base moves up,does that now become the 1st shooting rank ?
Grahams list by the way was I think
9 BG' s x 6 arm MF Hvy weapon/CB
1 X 4 prot cav cb
1 x 4 LH B
1X 6 LF CB
4 TC
not all had portable obstacles
I think it was designed for knight armies
David

[philqw78]

You count full bases if the rear rank is the 1st shooting rank so 3 bases shooting,one thought that struck me with this is when you lose a base which in a mixed group will almost certainly be a front rank base ,the rear rank base moves up,does that now become the 1st shooting rank ?
Grahams list by the way was I think
9 BG' s x 6 arm MF Hvy weapon/CB
1 X 4 prot cav cb
1 x 4 LH B
1X 6 LF CB
4 TC
not all had portable obstacles
I think it was designed for knight armies
David

But three at long rang is still one and a half dice, down to 1. After casualty the XBow will move to front rank but is first shooting rank in that file. Which is what counts.

[grahambriggs]

Can anyone explain whats so good about the portable defences? The +1 against cavalry when charged sounds great but limits their manouverability slightly, and at 9-12 pts a bg sounds a bit too expensive to me. Any chance of seeing the list that Graham used? If you don't mind at all.. I just finished painting up my first ever army of Western Han and just want to see how my lists square up against other peoples.

They mean that the HW/CB Medium Foot are not worried about mounted in the open. Which means that the mounted can't come near them to any effect. So the enemy lancers are toothless. So you can kill their support troops.

Without them it's a case of "can I kill the support troops before the lancers ride through me". With them it's a case of "I can kill the support troops and the lancers can't ride through me"

Graham had to deply the PO only once I think in a 6 round competition. But the fact that he had them was critical.

[Cerberias]

Ah yeah, I understand. Just out of interest is there anything you can do to stop the lancers 'faking' a charge by sitting just inside 5 and either running away if you deploy the forts or charging if you don't? Or would you deploy some not deploy others to make them 'stagger' their charge or move in with only some units if they want to get in at all?

Sorry for all the questions but I've never really played with portable fortifications before and i'm curious as to their practical applications.

[grahambriggs]

Ah yeah, I understand. Just out of interest is there anything you can do to stop the lancers 'faking' a charge by sitting just inside 5 and either running away if you deploy the forts or charging if you don't? Or would you deploy some not deploy others to make them 'stagger' their charge or move in with only some units if they want to get in at all?

Sorry for all the questions but I've never really played with portable fortifications before and i'm curious as to their practical applications.

I imagine that a unit in charge range of the lancers would deploy POs. You wouldn't mind too much if those expensive guys then turn and move away. But if they move away, what's going to support the flank of whatever is next to them?

And can't turn and move freely if another MF unit pins you at a shallow angle from the flank, as you'd have to remain in front of the guy thats pinning you. You can't wheel and charge the new enemy, as this would give less bases fighting than a charge into the obstacles. You could wheel to face the new enemy so as to mutually pin each other (better than letting them roam free). But that gets you closer to the crossbows behing the obstacles.

The PO help you win the manouver battle by cutting down the options that the cavalry have.

[jonphilp]

What I do not understand is why Portable defenses do not count against elephants. I can perhaps see the rational if we are talking about Palisades etc (Late Tang onwards) but the Warring States have the option of Caltrops which would I assume be ideal anti-elephant kit.

[ShrubMiK]

Not something I've really thought about before and I may well be forgetting something...but I don't recall any instances of battles where either side used caltrops against elephants. I would have thought Romans especially might have tried this if they thought it would do any good - they certainly tried any number of other tactics and/or unconventional weapons when on occasions when truncked quadrupeds hove into view!

[lonehorseman]

My idea based on what I have seen would be something along the lines of:

The pads of an elephants foot are made up of a layer of fat (a really thick one) and the skin is rather thick. I have seen elephants stroll casually over acacia thorns without a worry so maybe this is why caltrops wouldnt work. Like us stepping on a very small pin..it hurts a little but doesn't really stop you getting to the shiny stuffs u wants

[hazelbark]

I am now of the firm conclusion that the Chinese armies are within a hair's breath of awesome. Had they been given a sprinkling more of filler or a few superior foot units they would be extraordinarily nifty.

What took you so long - I thought that when writing them

I don't see you running them in many tournaments.

[hazelbark]

I am now of the firm conclusion that the Chinese armies are within a hair's breath of awesome. Had they been given a sprinkling more of filler or a few superior foot units they would be extraordinarily nifty.

Is this based on playing experience or just toying around with lists on paper?

Playing and tournaments
Xi Xia
Warring States
Western Wei
Early Tang **** likley the future prefered tiger list.
Rajputs** ok not like the rest.

Experimenting with others as well.

[hazelbark]

Hazelbark is a pretty serious user of them..Now, I think he is a bit overconfident based on his last week's Korean xbows rolling 13 out 15 hits (needing 5s) in impact and melee against my knights (true the xbows were superior...) which combined with my amazing ability to roll 1s on shooting casaulty tests (I think in about 9-12 total rounds of shotting he managed to score three hits I lost a stand 50% of the time) but they are solid armies.

Your Vulcan like odds calculations, fell pray to my Han Solo defying the odds skills.

I agree that it was quite lucky. However the fact that you basically lost 4 out of 4 contests suggests that it is far from certain that the knights will always win. And the ability to fall upon the knights with 2-3 BGs each makes its a fun assymetrical game.

[hazelbark]

Cool thanks. Can you move and then set them up with drilled troops or must you be stationary to set them up? How do you think you'd use them? Sit at 6 inches attempting to shoot the cavalry until they came into the restricted zone and then attempt to deploy them or deploy them ahead of time.. Lots of forethought I guess depending on the situation. Thanks again.

Actually its a bit of tight sphicnter time for each. You put them down at 6 MU and the mounted move away. So you let them get closer. Hope you pass your CMT to put them down then either pin the mounted or hope they fail and charge you.