Hellenistic Campaign circa 280 B.C.

[Ironclad]

Seleucids will invade Atropatene. Nigel, please respond by setting up a large battle.
Mac

Challenge up, pw Battle

[stockwellpete]

stockwellpete (Carthaginians) beat ianiow (Bruttians) 46-61

I have spoken to Mac and that is my last game in the campaign. He will be arranging a replacement shortly. Cheers everyone.

[rbodleyscott]

stockwellpete (Carthaginians) beat ianiow Bruttians) 46-61

I have spoken to Mac and that is my last game in the campaign. He will be arranging a replacement shortly. Cheers everyone.

Thanks for playing. Sorry you don't have time to continue.

[mceochaidh]

Pete has kindly given me some welcome comments, as has Nigel. Pete has recommended Cunningcairn to take his Carthaginians and Cunningcairn has agreed. 76mm will also be joining us as Antigonus Gonatus, who will now be a major power he is too interesting not to give an active role). In addition, I plan to add the Gauls as a major power. Each current player will retain their client states and treasury. New players will have a beginning treasury equal to the lowest treasury after 275 B.C. is completed. As you all know, there is not a great spread between the highest and lowest. Other changes:

Players will have the option, when designated to play a minor power, to allow the Rise of AI (or normal AI if this is more challenging) on Emperor level to play their part. The goal here is to move a bit faster and relieve players of the tedium of playing many armies they have no real interest in. These players will still choose terrain. The attacker will have the choice of choosing a large or medium battle.

Turns will now be 2 years and each player will have an opportunity to play with the power of his choice each turn. At times, players may have the option to play twice during a turn.

Decisive victories will now be 25%, down from 30%, to allow faster accumulation of client states. Client states held 10 years will become provinces, providing more income.

The campaign will be open ended, as long as players want to continue. The Hellenistic period is my favorite, so I will be happy to keep hosting.

In general, I have tried to simplify the rules. I will publish them after you all have had a chance to comment regarding these particular changes. I do plan to put a notice of players needed in the new campaign slot for that purpose, probably tomorrow.

Once Nigel and I are finished our game (I am the slow one), I will create a new map and update treasuries. Thanks for your patience.

Mac

[TheGrayMouser]

Sounds good to me, thanks! (Although not sure why anyone would want to play the AI, seems like it defeats the purpose of a "campaign" with other humans

[76mm]

mceochaidh, thanks much for the invite, I hope that I'll be a worthy opponent!

Two questions:
1) If my understanding is correct, I am representing a new power and am not replacing the current Macedonia--so now are there two Macedonias?
2) Does anyone have a consolidated copy of the rules? I've skimmed through the thread and seen various rules and updates, but nothing in one place. I was going to cut and paste the various bits into a consolidated rule set but I seem to be having problems with my mouse...

[mceochaidh]

Yes you wil be Antigonus who in our campaign has been a minor power up to now. You will be playing with his Macedonian army. Ian is playing as Macedon and you will use the same list. They were mortal enemies. I have a revised rule set that I will send today.

Mac

[mceochaidh]

I will post the revised rules in two parts to be in effect for the next turn, 274 B. B.
Here is part 1

Hellenistic Campaign circa 280 B.C. Revised March 2018
These are the major powers:
1. Epirus – Central
2. Rome – West
3. Macedon – Central
4. Gauls - West
5. Carthage – West
6. Seleucids - East
7. Ptolemaic Empire – East
8. Antigonus Gonatus - using Macedonian list - Central

The campaign will last for as long as there is interest in continuing, after which victory points (talents earned based on battle results and client states) will be determined. Each turn will be two campaign years. During this period each player will have a battle, either against another player or the AI.

The major powers can invade other powers either in its own area (East, Central or West) or an adjacent area. The exceptions are that Ptolemaic Empire and Carthage can invade each other and Gauls may only initially invade Spain, Italy, Epirus, or Thrace. Once a major power wins a client state in another area, the major power can use this state to attack other powers in further areas. For example, If Rome invades and conquers Sparta, Sparta becomes a client state of Rome. In a subsequent turn, Rome can use Sparta as a staging area to invade Bithynia, which is in the East. If Client states are attacked by other powers, their “Patron State” can use its own army to defend or use the minor power’s army.
Certain “barbarian” minor powers, if victorious, can migrate through conquest and invade adjacent areas. These are Galatians and Sarmatians. If these barbarians defeat either major or minor powers decisively in battle or win 2 consecutive battles, they may invade an adjacent area by virtue of conquest. If they win a major victory against a minor power, they occupy that state. If they win but not a major victory, they remain in the minor power and the minor power can only attack this enemy and the reverse. The two adversaries are locked and may only fight each other. If the minor power is a client state, that state’s major power can send its own army in its own turn to attack the barbarians. If this battle is lost by the minor power who was attacked, the barbarian power will control and inhabit the new area they have conquered.

If the barbarians have defeated a major power, they can remain inside the area controlled by the major power. At the end of each turn in which the barbarian power remains in the area of a major power, the major power has its annual income reduced by 200 talents. For example, if the Galatians defeat the Macedonians, the Macedonians will have only 800 talents in income at the end of the year instead of 1000 talents. In subsequent turns, these barbarians can choose to migrate to another area. They can choose to invade any other power that the power they have conquered can invade, limited only by the requirement that they stay in the area they are in and cannot cross water (exception- if the Galatians attack and defeat Thrace, they can, in a subsequent turn, attack across the Propontus to Bithynia). In the example above, if the Galatians defeat Macedon, they could invade Sparta, but not Egypt (Ptolemaics). Galatians must start their migration by invading either Thrace or Macedon. Sarmatians must start by invading Armenia, Atropatene or Pontus. Each major power can choose to move and control a barbarian power in any particular turn instead of moving itself, subject to the rules below and the rules governing battle results. This is intended to provide some variety of games for the players and give players a strategic choice.

Minor powers in the East:
1. Arab
2. Armenia
3. Atropatene
4. Bithynian
5. Bosporan
6. Nabatean
7. Pontic
8. Sarmatian

Minor powers in the Central Area:
1. Achaean League
2. Aetolian League
3. Galatian
4. Sparta
5. Rhoxolani
6. Thrace
7. Illyria

Minor powers in the West:
1. Apulian
2. Boii – using the Gallic list
3. Bruttian
4. Campanian
5. CeltIberian - Spanish
6. Iberian - Spanish
7. Syracuse

[mceochaidh]

Here is part 2 of the revised rules.

Sequence of Play
1. Order of players’ movement is decided. This is based on a random system (Public Lotto or the like and will change each turn). Movement order is also affected by players’ choice of attacking other players or minor powers.
2. First Player chooses to move or defers movement until other players have moved.
3. If First Player invades, the power invaded must defend, causing a battle. If a minor power is invaded, the last player to move this turn must defend as the minor power. If Player 1 attacks a minor power, Player 8 must defend as that minor power. Then if Player 2 also attacks a (different) minor power, then Player 7 must defend as that minor power. The Power invaded chooses terrain based on location being invaded. For example, Rome is invaded and chooses Mediterranean Hilly. Battles between major powers are large except for the final battle to determine the outcome of an invasion between 2 major powers, which is very large. Battles that include a minor power can be large or medium, at the choice of the attacking power.
4. The next player in order chooses to move or defer movement. The players already committed to battle by being invaded by another player are ineligible to be invaded this turn.
5. Invasion and responses to invasion are completed until all players have moved and had a battle.
6. A player who must respond to an attack as a minor power may choose instead to require the attacking player to play the game using the AI or Rise of AI mod on Emperor setting. This player will still dictate terrain for the attacking player. Responding players who choose this option will still move in their order for the turn. This could result in 2 battles in a turn for some players.

Battles and Results
1. The player invaded chooses terrain based on terrain choices available in his area.
2. Final battles between major states are very large.
3. Other battles are large or if involving a minor state may be medium at choice of attacker.
4. Decisive victories are those in which 25 percent difference is achieved, based on default method – for example, causing 40% casualties and receiving 15%. For battles between major powers, the victor receives 1000 talents in booty and the vanquished cannot attack the victor during the next year. It also pays tribute of 500 talents at the beginning of the next year. If the vanquished is a minor state. It becomes a client of the victor.
5. A less than decisive victory causes a retreat from the battlefield by the loser. The victor receives 500 talents in booty if the loser is a major power. The loser cannot attack the victor during the next turn. The victor can attack that same enemy during his next available turn. A second victory (of any kind) causes vanquished minor states to become client states. It causes vanquished major powers to pay tribute of 500 talents and prevents the major power from attacking this victor for 4 years (2 turns). It may still attack other enemies.
6. A draw is any result in which less than 60% casualties is achieved by either player. Example: Player A has 50%, player B has 40% at game end.
7. A minor power which has lost a non-decisive battle will be in a weakened state for a period of 8 years (4 turns.) This will be designated on the map with a red “W” next to it. If a minor power in such a state loses another battle of any kind, it will become a client state of the victor of that battle. Provinces are more resilient and will stay in a weakened state for 4 years (2 turns).


Economics – Major Powers

1. Each major power has a beginning treasury of 20,000T and income of 1,000T per turn.
2. Each client state produces an income per turn of 200T.
3. A client state that remains so for 10 years (5 turns) continuously becomes a province. Provinces produce an income per turn of 300T.
4. There will be an annual random catastrophe, an earthquake, famine, volcano eruption. Since turns are 2 years this will happen twice each turn. Results may reduce income for that turn.
5. It costs 1,000T to mobilize and equip an army to attack another major power.
6. It costs 500T to mobilize and equip an army to defend your home territory, that of a client or province, or, to attack a minor power.
7. Winning a battle decisively against a major power gives the victor 1000T and costs the loser 1000T.
8. Non-decisive wins against a major power gives the victor 500T and costs the loser 500T.
9. Draws will cost both sides 200T.
10. A major power needs at least 500T to defend itself from invasion. If it does not have this, then one final battle may be fought (assuming it has borrowed the needed funds). If it is defeated in this battle, it becomes a client state of the victor. Each major power that becomes a client state produces 500T for the victor annually. For example, if Rome conquers Carthage, Carthage produces 500T per year for Rome as its client state, reducing its own treasury if it still has one.

Economics – Minor Powers
1. Minor powers do not have a treasury. If a major power chooses to attack a major power with its minor power client or province, it is assumed that the major power is providing the funds to the minor power to mobilize and attack, costing the major power 500T. In this case, the funds received due to winning the battle against the major power will be added to the treasury of that major power “sponsoring” the attack on the other major power.
2. If a minor power wins a battle against a major power, it will cost the major power 500 talents if it is a decisive loss, 200T if a non-decisive loss and a further 300T if 2 consecutive losses. In the case of a draw, both player’s major power will have a reduction of 200T from their treasury. For example, Macedon has a draw with Sparta. This will cost Macedon 200T and if Rome is playing Sparta, it will cost Rome 200T. The goal is to encourage playing to win the battle. If Sparta had won the battle, the booty from Macedon (500 talents if a decisive loss or 200 talents if not) would be given to Rome, who is this case is Sparta’s sponsor.

How to win the campaign
Whenever the campaign ends, the richest nation is considered the winner of the campaign. Note that “T” stands for Talents in computation of treasury and income amounts. Note that the army list used will be that of the time period, initially 280 B.C. This will change, depending on the particular list, if the campaign lasts long enough.

[76mm]

Thanks for these rules, very helpful. A couple of questions/clarifications:
1) In this sentence: "Final battles between major states are very large" what constitutes a "final battle"?
2) Am I correct that minor powers cannot initiate attacks (either against other minor powers or major powers)?
3) Who decides when/if the barbarian factions "migrate" and to which region they migrate?

Thanks, sorry if I overlooked the answers to these questions in the rules.

[ulysisgrunt]

Any room for another player or 'sub'?

Danny

[mceochaidh]

76mm

Final battle is that in which a major state has not enough in its treasury to attack or even receive an attack. In a final effort, the state can beg, borrow or steal enough to do battle in the hope of winning enough booty to continue. If it wins, it may continue. If it loses, it will probably become a client state of the winner. I can't imagine this taking place for many decades based on the ability to earn income each turn.

Minor powers have no treasury and cannot attack, just defend. However, a client state or province can be used as a staging area for its major power, so that the major power can attack from that minor state. Ordinarily, a major state in the east can only attack states in the east or central areas and major states in the west can only attack states in the west or central areas. If however, Rome acquires a client state in the central area (Sparta for instance), it can use this state to launch an attack in the east. States in the central area have a built in advantage in that they can already attack states in any area. This of course is a double edged sword as they can also be attacked!

Barbarian states can be chosen by a major power as their move instead of moving themselves. This assumes the major power sees some strategic advantage in doing so. We started the game with the Galatians invading Macedonia, winning that initial contest. Ian has chosen to ignore them and focus on acquiring client states, which are contributing to macedon's treasury each turn. However, the Galatians also reduce Macedon's treasury by 200T each turn that they remain in Macedon.

Ulysisgrunt

I intend to add the Gauls as a major power commensurate with the beginning of the new turn in 274 B.C. I am assuming that the fabled Gold of Tolosa that was not put into the lake is the source of the treasury.

"The Gold of Tolosa (also the aurum Tolosanum) existed as a hoard of treasures plundered from Greece (allegedly the sanctuary of Apollo at Delphi) in 279 BC by Gallic invaders of the Volcae (often denoted incorrectly as Galatians, despite the later migration of some Volcae Tectosagi to Galatia). It was often noted that, during the siege of Apollo's sanctuary at Delphi, the Gallic leader, Brennus, was badly wounded (many contemporary sources state some kind of divine intervention, and the battle was lost against a combined force of Thracians, Macedonians, Triballi and Illyrians). Many, after their fortunes reversed, retreated back into the Balkans, some to the Volcae heartlands, and many others back to Gaul itself, dumping their plunder into the lakes near Tolosa (modern-day Toulouse), believing that the loot was cursed. The faltering of Brennus's great expedition, however, helped create the Gallic exclaves around Tylis and in Galatia, the latter of which remaining de facto independent for centuries to come" I am assuming a separate invasion while the Galatians kept Macedon busy.

This will provide the restive tribes with enough capital to attack south.

If you are interested in becoming these Gauls with their many tribes please let me know.

Mac

[76mm]

76mm
Barbarian states can be chosen by a major power as their move instead of moving themselves. This assumes the major power sees some strategic advantage in doing so. We started the game with the Galatians invading Macedonia, winning that initial contest. Ian has chosen to ignore them and focus on acquiring client states, which are contributing to macedon's treasury each turn.

Thanks, Mac, very helpful, as usual.

One more potentially dumb question about the quoted text above--as a major power, would Ian be able to take control of the Galatians for a turn and migrate them somewhere else, or are there some kind of "conflict of interest" rules to prevent a player from migrating barbarians out of his own domain?

Also, I'm a little fuzzy about where "my" Macedonia is on the map...is it physically distinct from Ian's Macedonia,or are we considered to be opposing factions occupying the same region?

[mceochaidh]

76mm

The actual history is that Antigonus inherited some treasure, mercenaries and a reputation. He was the son of Demetrios the Besieger and grandson of Antigonus the One Eye, so of Macedonian royal blood. Macedon was always ruled by factions, so when Demetrios was taken prisoner, Antigonus used his reputation to attract mercenaries and some Macedonians. He had a power base in Greece that shifted over time. I am assuming for this campaign, that it is centered around far western Anatolia, Athens and the Aegean close by. He had a naval capability, once again probably all mostly mercenaries. His army certainly fought in the "Macedonian fashion" which means organized as were the Macedonian successors' armies. I have placed his "state" in an area that could include far western Anatolia, the Aegean islands and Athens.

Antigonus Gonatus actually rose to power in 277 when he crushed one branch of the Galatians (using lots of Gauls as mercenaries to supplement his Greek and Macedonian mercenaries). By 273 he was using Macedonians (who actually deserted to Pyrrhus!). This was an interesting period and is why I am drawn to it. The ruler of Macedon when my campaign starts in 280 was Ptolemy Keraunos, who had murdered Seleucus and seized the throne only to be killed in the Galatian invasion. Well in our campaign, Keraunos has survived and thrived (due to Ian's excellent play), and Antigonus is tired of waiting.

Regarding the Galatians, they will stay in Macedon until Keraunos drives them out by winning a battle or until another player decides to use them as his turn to attack a land power in Greece or Illyria or move across the Hellespont to attack a land power in Anatolia (they actually ended up in Anatolia and founded a state). The Galatians have no navy so can't cross any water except for the Hellespont.

Mac

[ulysisgrunt]

Thank you for inviting me to join the campaign.
To quota a famous Californian: "I'm rested, ready and tanned".

[mceochaidh]

Twice during a turn a lottery drawing is used to determine whether a natural disaster struck. This is now determined by the red Powerball in drawings every other Saturday. The highest number of the red Powerball numbers as applied to the normal movement order will determine that there was a famine or earthquake or other catastrophe during the turn. The highest red Powerball number will determine where the disaster strikes in the first half of the turn/year and the lowest number in the red Powerball number will determine where the disaster strikes in the second half of the turn/year. If the highest red powerball number is higher than 6 or zero, there is no affect.

Each catastrophe would reduce annual income by 200T if the sum of the second 2 white balls was 5 or less or 300T if 6 or more. If a major power has an occupying force in its territory (such as Ian now does with the Galatians) AND it is subject to the disaster, it will lose an additional 100T.

The Powerball draw for 24 March was White: 10 33 45 53 56 Red: 24. Since the lowest red number is 2, Rome's normal movement number, Rome will again be affected by the famine that Italy has been enduring. Since the sum of the second 2 white balls is 6, Rome will lose 300T from its income. Manius Curius Dentatus, despite his heroic nature, has failed to protect Rome. The Roman women must now offer a blood sacrifice to Bona Dea! The state must be protected at all costs!

Note that this system will change in 274 B.C. to accommodate 8 major powers.

[mceochaidh]

Here is a summary of activities in 275 B.C.:

1. Epirus (TGM) beginning treasury 23,300T. Epirus had no activity in 275 B.C. Epirus received 1,000T in annual income. Ending treasury was 24,300T.

2. Rome (Nigel) beginning treasury 23,000T. Rome had no activity in 275 B.C. Rome received 1,000T in annual income, but suffered famine all year, losing a total of 600T, a disaster! Ending treasury was 23,400T.

3. Macedon (Ian) beginning treasury 24,100T. Macedon was inactive. Macedon received 1,000T in annual income. Both the Aetolian League and the Achaean League are clients of Macedon, so Macedon receives 200T from each. However, the Galatians are still in northern Macedon, so cost Macedon 200T. Ending treasury was 25,300T.

4. Carthage (Pete) beginning treasury was 24,100T. Carthage spent 500T to invade the Bruttians and won a victory 46% to 61%, by all accounts a hard fought battle. This was the second victory for Carthage over the Bruttians. Carthage defeated them in 277 B.C. Therefore, the Bruttians are now a client state of Carthage. Carthage received 1,000T in income, 200T from the Bruttians, its new client state and 200T from Syracuse, also its client state. Ending treasury was 25,200T.

5. Seleucids (Mac) beginning treasury was 23,100T. Seleucids spent 500T to invade Atropatene, winning a very hard fought battle 26% to 53%. Seleucids received 1,000T in income. Ending treasury was 23,800T.

6. Ptolemaic (Richard) beginning treasury was 24,600T. Ptolemy spent 500T to invade Pontus winning a “Pyrrhic victory” 52% to 60%. Bithynia is a client of Ptolemy, adding 200T to its income of 1000T. Ending treasury was 25,300T.

After the first 6 years of the Campaign, the Ptolemaic Empire has become the richest state in the Hellenistic world, but others are not far behind and new major powers will vie for supremacy as a new year dawns.

[mceochaidh]

This is the map for 274 B.C. Note that Campania, Pontus and Atropatene have small red W next to their location. This signifies that these minor state are in a "Weakened" state due to battlefield losses. Another lost battle of any kind will cause these minor powers to become client states of the major power who wins the battle.

[76mm]

Sorry, but I still don't understand where my domain is located on the map?

[ulysisgrunt]

When will Gaul make its move?
Danny