Dismounted Scots Nobility

[w_michael]

In the later Scots army lists the Knights & Sergeants units can dismount at deployment as Superior, Heavily Armoured, Heavy Weapons units. This seems strange to me because when Scots armies comprised only infantry in this period, the nobles joined the front ranks of the schiltrons. Even if they did not take up the spear, they did not form independent units of heavy weapons. I expected the Knights and Sergeants to dismount as Superior, Heavily Armoured, Offensive Spearmen.

[rbodleyscott]

In the later Scots army lists the Knights & Sergeants units can dismount at deployment as Superior, Heavily Armoured, Heavy Weapons units. This seems strange to me because when Scots armies comprised only infantry in this period, the nobles joined the front ranks of the schiltrons. Even if they did not take up the spear, they did not form independent units of heavy weapons. I expected the Knights and Sergeants to dismount as Superior, Heavily Armoured, Offensive Spearmen.

But as you say, they did not dismount as separate units of knightly spearmen, they just formed up in the front rank of the normal spear units. This was pretty much habitual, so you can assume that Scots spearmen units always have some dismounted knights in the front rank. That is why the Scots army army lists have no pre-dismounted knight units.

The separate units of Knights are those that formed up separately and fought mounted. If you choose to dismount them, you can assume that they were too late in doing so to join the schiltrons.

I am speculating here, but just because they formed up in the front rank of the schiltrons does not necessarily mean that they fought with spears. Catalan wall paintings of the 13th century showed mixed bodies of spearmen and heavier armed soldiers with swords, the swordsmen in the front rank and the spearmen behind, so such a formation is known to have existed elsewhere. Scots (and Catalan city militia) spears were certainly long enough to project from at least the second rank beyond the front rank, and possibly from the 3rd rank too.

That being the case, we did not see the need to have mounted Scottish knights units dismount differently from other knights of the period.

[w_michael]

Fair enough. Too bad no one thought to take a photograph of one of the battles so that we would know for sure.

[w_michael]

The standard Dismounted Knights and Sergeants units in the German (Imperial) list are average sized (240 men for example) for 69 points, but if you dismount a 72 point Knight and Sergeants unit during deployment it is only small size (118 men for example)! Both are Superior, Armoured, Heavy Weapon foot, but one costs more and is half the size of the other. The smaller unit more quickly disintegrates in combat. You have to make the decision to dismount before you even see the enemy army mix. Dismounting seems to be a fool's errand except in special circumstances.

Also, knights didn't generally have heavy weapons when mounted so how did they get them when they dismount? Wouldn't they be more realistically be represented by swordsmen, or be given a fellow Scot's long spear so they they were offensive spearmen?

[SnuggleBunnies]

The standard Dismounted Knights and Sergeants units in the German (Imperial) list are average sized (240 men for example) for 69 points, but if you dismount a 72 point Knight and Sergeants unit during deployment it is only small size (118 men for example)! Both are Superior, Armoured, Heavy Weapon foot, but one costs more and is half the size of the other. The smaller unit more quickly disintegrates in combat. You have to make the decision to dismount before you even see the enemy army mix. Dismounting seems to be a fool's errand except in special circumstances.

Also, knights didn't generally have heavy weapons when mounted so how did they get them when they dismount? Wouldn't they be more realistically be represented by swordsmen, or be given a fellow Scot's long spear so they they were offensive spearmen?

Really depends on the circumstances, but the Dismounts *can* be worth it over staying mounted, at least for the Late Knights, which get an additional 75POA of Armor Advantage over the Early Knights:

1) Somewhat less vulnerable to missile fire
2) Less likely to bounce off, and thus able to avoid getting shot at
3) Heavy Weapon Impact capability is not dependent on Open terrain, unlike Knightly Lancers
4) Against Steady Spearmen, the Dismounts will be up 150POA, as opposed to 50 for Late Mounted. That's enough to reliably win, albeit it in a grossly wasteful matchup in terms of points
5) Only Moderately Disordered in Rough/Villages, as opposed to Severely for late Mounted

The Early Knights are Offensive Spearmen, as they are generally using lances, spears, etc. The Late Knights are using poleaxes, axes, hammers, etc., which they have for dismounted action. Dismounting was generally done well before battle began, so they could take the time to select what they wanted from their baggage. It's not like Knights personally carried everything with them, that's what squires and servants are for, not to mention your several extra horses!

In this match from the Reconquista tournament, I *do* defeat Nosy's French, but he came much closer to winning as French than I did, thanks to his unexpected selection of Dismounted Late Knights:
https://youtu.be/sA-kf6a4yd0

[w_michael]

Good point about dismounted knights rearming from their baggage.

@Snugglebunnies: Do you find ordinary heavy weapons units worth buying over ordinary offensive spear. I imagine some of the attributes listed above also apply.