Early Archaemenid Persian 700pt for tourney

[recharge]

Hmmmm.....................

Take the Persaian Cavalry, and Persian Infantry that you have too plus the Immortals and then take the remaining points in Greek Infantry no worries and enjoy the games.

The tactics Keep the hopilites in the middle the Immortals on their flanks as being medium they are good at moving and turning getting around the flanks ect.

Deploy the "other MF" last, and the Immortals second from last. You want the Immortals to face a good match-up and the the "other MF" to face nothing solid at all. That way their shooting can be effective but they won't get run over by the enemy's close-combat troops.

Of course, it helps to have an IC so that you deploy second.

I am normally in favour of all TCs, but for the EAP (for a variety of reasons) I think an IC is particularly good value.

One reason is that the armoured Greek hoplites are particularly good in melee but are disadvantaged in the Impact phase vs pikemen and legionaries. It is therefore quite likely that they will lose the Impact phase combat, and hence anything that increases their chance of remaining steady is a good thing. The IC adds an extra +1 CT modifier (compared with a TC) to one BG, which makes the difference surprisingly often. Also, the reason my list (see my previous post) has a BG of 4 Asiatic hoplites is so that they can provide an extra +1 CT modifier for rear support to both larger BGs of hoplites by standing in a column behind the join between the BGs. That being their role, there is no point in having 6 of them, and I saved a further 8 points by making them Protected, which allowed me a BG of 4 Poor LF - useful for slowing the enemy movement and to increase the number of BGs in the army.

PS I won the small tournament I entered with the above army, and did not suffer a single attrition point in any of the four games.

Let's see here..................

The guy who wrote the rules, wins the tourney and suffers no attrition losses


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................???????????????????



John

[rbodleyscott]

Hmmmm.....................

Let's see here..................

The guy who wrote the rules, wins the tourney and suffers no attrition losses

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................???????????????????

John

Rules writers winning tournaments might be considered a refreshing change in Ancient/Medieval Wargaming.

[babyshark]

Hmmmm.....................

Let's see here..................

The guy who wrote the rules, wins the tourney and suffers no attrition losses

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................???????????????????

John

Rules writers winning tournaments might be considered a refreshing change in Ancient/Medieval Wargaming.

Marc

[marioslaz]

historically it was more in the LAP period that the persians filled their armies with mercenary hoplites - excepting the plataea campaign when some greek cities sided with the invaders.

I think its kind of cheating using hoplites to win your battles as a 'persian'. might as well have a classical greek army if hoplites are your thing.

Thanks for the criticism. Now to be helpful, could you rather help me make a competitive Early Archaemenid Persian list. (I listed 2 lists - help me then make the first list competitive, if you regard the second as cheating)

I don't want to be critic, but just remember you must use at least 12 bases of persian infantry. Because you want to use Medizing Greek Hoplites, you must choose MF half bow+light spear and half bow. You can get one immortal BG to support both. You must get also cavalry, and you can get 2 BGs of 4 because is armoured. I suggest you get also some skirmishers. You could get Saka cavalry, very good as LH because they have swordsmen ability, and LF with javelin and light spears, whom you can use to skirmish but also to hunt enemy skirmishers without impact bonus. This give a pretty balanced army, like this:
2x4 armoured cavalry (144)
1x6 Immortals armoured (72)
2x6 other persian (72)
1x6 Saka LH (60)
3x6 hoplites armoured (162)
1x8 Mysian, ecc LF (32)
for 542 total points. This let you over 150 points for commanders.

[rbodleyscott]

just remember you must use at least 12 bases of persian infantry. Because you want to use Medizing Greek Hoplites, you must choose MF half bow+light spear and half bow. You can get one immortal BG to support both.

Sorry Mario, but that would be a terrible waste of the Immortals' potential. It also commits the classical military error of "reinforcing failure". It is also historically inaccurate - Immortals were front line troops not last ditch reserves.

[Eques]

Thanks for the criticism. Now to be helpful, could you rather help me make a competitive Early Archaemenid Persian list. (I listed 2 lists - help me then make the first list competitive, if you regard the second as cheating)

was'nt really referring to your lists and I did say "kind of" cheating. no offence meant was just making the general point that if one wants a persian army one should try and win as a persian army. that might make one's task more difficult but that was the case historically too as any number of persian generals and great kings would testify.

it would be like choosing to play as the gauls and then basing your strategy around "roman allies" (if that's in the book-don't have it with me).

[marioslaz]

Thanks for the criticism. Now to be helpful, could you rather help me make a competitive Early Archaemenid Persian list. (I listed 2 lists - help me then make the first list competitive, if you regard the second as cheating)

was'nt really referring to your lists and I did say "kind of" cheating. no offence meant was just making the general point that if one wants a persian army one should try and win as a persian army. that might make one's task more difficult but that was the case historically too as any number of persian generals and great kings would testify.

it would be like choosing to play as the gauls and then basing your strategy around "roman allies" (if that's in the book-don't have it with me).

I agree with you 100% if you were playing a campaign game. But in tournament this could be different, because it can happen you play with a Persian army against a Carthaginian one, or Roman, or another one with which there wasn't interaction at all. Armies which historically met on battlefield had often troops which are reciprocally efficacious, this because of course each people try to develop weapons to get an advantage against neighbours or to contrast enemy better weapons. I rarely played in a tournament and not recently, but I feel to play only historically it would be like to fight a boxing match with an arm tied behind your back.

[HansJansen]

Hey,

I am excited to play this army, but have one concern

If I take a battle of 6 immortals or 6 MF bow/lightspear infantry I only get 4 dice for the battle group inside range, whereas I get 6 for a battle group of 8
That is 2/3 of bg compared to 3/4 of bg.

Is the extra dice not worth the bigger group?

[rbodleyscott]

Hey,

I am excited to play this army, but have one concern

If I take a battle of 6 immortals or 6 MF bow/lightspear infantry I only get 4 dice for the battle group inside range, whereas I get 6 for a battle group of 8
That is 2/3 of bg compared to 3/4 of bg.

Is the extra dice not worth the bigger group?

It would be if you have enough points, but in 700 you don't.

Remember that shooting dice are determine per target not per BG shooting.

So if you do have a BG of 8 and not all are shooting at the same target you will still lose those dice.

Conversely, if you have 2 BGs shooting at one target, you add the dice together. Even the half dice can be added together. So if you have a BG of 6 Immortals and a BG of 6 "other MF" shooting at the same target, you would get 9 dice shooting - 4 Superior (reroll 1s) and 5 Average. The 2 half dice left over from each BG are added together to make 1 dice of the lower quality.

You should always keep your non-light foot BGs together anyway, and you should always try to concentrate shooting if possible for maximum effect. So having your archers in 6s isn't as bad as it might first appear.

Moreover, if the enemy is not facing them with anything solid, you can deploy a BG of 6 with 4 in the front rank and 2 in the 2nd rank and get 5 dice shooting. This is more risky however, and I would not do it routinely, especially for the "other MF", who find it hard to change formation.

[HansJansen]

Thank you.

That cleared up a lot.

I am working on my final list
Will post is as soon as I am done

We are also considering 800pts, so I will post my two options - one for 700 and one for 800

Thanks for all the help,

Hans Jansen.

[HansJansen]

My List Thanks to rbodleyscott (Armies is based on his list)

700pt

1 x IC
1 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
1 x 4 Horse Archers, LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
2 x 6 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow

800pt

1 x IC
2 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
1 x 4 Horse Archers, LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Hoplites, HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
2 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow

Hope this list will do ok.

Thank you for all the help. I feel more confident with EAP now.


Hans Jansen

[rbodleyscott]

2 generals isn't really enough in 700 points. (IMO, of course). I would dump the LH and the Armour from the 4 hoplite BG and have another TC.

There are then enough points to make the Poor LF Kaspian archers.

700pt

1 x IC
2 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Kaspian archers, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow
2 x 6 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow

Losing the LH isn't good, but better than losing one of the TCs IMO. Alternatively you might free up some points by only having 1 BG of 8 Immortals instead of 2 of 6.


The 800 AP list looks fine, though naturally I would tweak it a bit.

[HansJansen]

700pt

1 x IC
2 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Kaspian archers, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow
1 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 4 Saka Cav LH, Unprotected, Bow, Sword
1 x 4 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear

Are these changes ok?

What tweaking can I do for the 800pt?

[rbodleyscott]

700pt

1 x IC
2 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Kaspian archers, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow
1 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 4 Saka Cav LH, Unprotected, Bow, Sword
1 x 4 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear

Are these changes ok?

Yes. In truth, all very fine tuning is a matter of taste. You just need to have some idea of your possible battle plans and the proposed role of each BG in them. (On which subject, see below).

What tweaking can I do for the 800pt?

It depends on whether you are planning to use your Asiatic hoplites in the main battle line or in rear support. If you are always going to use them in rear support there is no point in having more than 4 of them, and they may as well be Protected. In which case you have points to spend on something else. For example you could increase the "other MF" Bgs to 8 each.

[grahambriggs]

700pt

1 x IC
2 x TC
2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 6 Kaspian archers, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow
1 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 4 Saka Cav LH, Unprotected, Bow, Sword
1 x 4 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear

Are these changes ok?

What tweaking can I do for the 800pt?

Hans - Instead of the 4 protected hoplites, consider using 4 egyptian marines - MF Prot drilled defensive spear average. Being drilled helps as they can more easily get in a support postion or move to protect the hoplite flank if necessary.

My 800 point list is:

4 TCs (I prefer moving first to give the Immortals 8 MU of movement
4 LF poor lt spear jav
4 LF poor bow
4 Egyptian marines
8, 8, 6 armoured hoplites
2x6 persian MF
2x4 persian cavalry
2x8 armoured Immortals

The key to using is the combination of hoplites and Immortals. Ideally Immortals to advance through brush and hoplies right next to them in the open.

[HansJansen]

The more I look at EAP, the more I like them. Originally I liked them for the fact that they got variety, but know I love them for that reason ( and they look very cool). My first game is going to be with borrowed figures (Only been involved in two games, and only been playing for 3 weeks)

I guess that even taking "weak" troops have got advantages in numbers. I might even decide to go all Persian with it (Got two games to go before tournament)

Have anyone tried swarming with EAP before? Does it work (focusing on board coverage) {Sorry to ask off-topic, but I was wondering}

Crazy 700pt

1 x TC
3 x TC
1 x 6 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
1 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
8 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 8 Bactrian, Saka or similar foot, MF Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 4 Indian foot 525-?, MF Unprotected, Average, Drilled, Sword, Bow
---
12

Crazy 800pt

1 x TC
3 x TC
1 x 6 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 x 8 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
8 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 8 Bactrian, Saka or similar foot, MF Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x 4 Indian foot 525-?, MF Unprotected, Average, Drilled, Sword, Bow
1 x 4 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
---
14

As you can see they have 12 and 14 battle groups respectively, and a massive 38 or 41 front coverage. All with double row of bow (excluded are the greek javelinmen).

Have anyone tried this before, and does mass shooting like this work?

Hans Jansen.

[david53]

As you can see they have 12 and 14 battle groups respectively, and a massive 38 or 41 front coverage. All with double row of bow (excluded are the greek javelinmen).

Have anyone tried this before, and does mass shooting like this work?

Hans Jansen.

To be honest covering the table is'nt the best idea, you'll just be thin all over.
I would work on having a tight forward line with rear support if you can.
Have the immortal's in the froont along with Greeks if you take them.
Place the Cavalry on the wing, the battle tactics of the real army usually work well, if fighting armies in period.
Dave

[grahambriggs]

As you can see they have 12 and 14 battle groups respectively, and a massive 38 or 41 front coverage. All with double row of bow (excluded are the greek javelinmen).

Have anyone tried this before, and does mass shooting like this work?

Hans Jansen.

The problem is that the undrilled MF are quite weak troops. The enemy will mass enough troops against them to get through the arrows and once you are in hand to hand combat you have no melee capabilities so will not last long. Also, being undrilled they cannot react very well to an enemy break through.

[DaiSho]

Deploy the "other MF" last, and the Immortals second from last. You want the Immortals to face a good match-up and the the "other MF" to face nothing solid at all. That way their shooting can be effective but they won't get run over by the enemy's close-combat troops.

How do bow go against mounted? I don't run Bow very often, and if I do I usually run Bow*. It seems to me that Bow in the open aren't going to hang around very long against mounted. Sure, you get more dice on impact, but with the - you're likely to be not rolling any better than 5's and 6's against 4's, 5's and 6's.

Any tales of glory/woe?

Ian

[HansJansen]

I should probably go with the recommended for the tourney.

I think massed longbow shooting will work, but not bow shooting.

Thanks for all the help!!

Hans.