Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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wzfcns
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Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

Here is one Zhou's "Army".
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An Zhou's "Army" has five "divisions" ,each include 2500-3000 men and 80-100 Chariot(with 200-250 noblemen),in total 12500-15000 men.In battle,they always organize to three "corps"or “wings”.
The King of Zhou can rise 14 divisions,more than 35000 men.Whole kingdom can mobilize 6 Armys,in total 75000 men.
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GiveWarAchance
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by GiveWarAchance »

It looks like a nice formation. I like the chariots leading the troops kind of like scouts.
Did they really field armies in those giant numbers?
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by MVP7 »

Nice looking formation. I wonder if Field of Glory 2 will ever get an official East-Asia module.
GiveWarAchance wrote:It looks like a nice formation. I like the chariots leading the troops kind of like scouts.
Did they really field armies in those giant numbers?
Durin Warring States period (223 BC, late Zhou dynasty) the state of Qin allegedly had as many as 600 000 men to send to war against Chu a year after severely losing with an army of 200 000 men against Chu's 500 000. Numbers like these are probably partially based on Han-dynasty propaganda but the Chinese states definitely had large armies even back then, probably as large or larger than what there were in the west at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_S ... of_warfare
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

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GiveWarAchance wrote:It looks like a nice formation. I like the chariots leading the troops kind of like scouts.
Did they really field armies in those giant numbers?
Warring States period is too far away from west zhou (about 500 years),and the formation what I talk about didn't exist in that period.Here is a battle which still use"Zhou's Army",the Battle of Chengpu(632BC),Lord Decheng of Chu state vs Duke wen of Jin state.In that time,each chariots group with 30 infantry. In this battle,Jin has 700 chariots, 21000 men,Chu and his alliances have 1000 chariots,nealy 30000 men.
Image
RED:Chu
BLUE:Jin
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wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

Image
Another picture about Battle of Chengpu,which show the battle process.
Green:JIN
RED:Chu
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jomni
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by jomni »

A small request for guys with this type of battle info. Please create Epic Battles for Silk Road. :)
Or you can share your resource here even if it’s in Chinese.
wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

jomni wrote:A small request for guys with this type of battle info. Please create Epic Battles for Silk Road. :)
Or you can share your resource here even if it’s in Chinese.
Don't Know how to create Epic Battles :cry:
But I can share some resource about Battle of Chengpu.The record of this battle mainly from "The Spring and Autumn Annals",a official chronicle of the State of Lu,was likely composed in the 5th century BC.
Info of this battle was recorded in 僖公二十八年(The 28th year ruled by Duke Xi):
二十八年,春,晋侯将伐曹,假道于卫,卫人弗许,还自河南济,侵曹,伐卫,正月,戊申,取五鹿,二月,晋郤縠卒,原蹫将中军,胥臣佐下军,上德也,晋侯,齐侯,盟于敛盂,卫侯请盟,晋人弗许,卫侯欲与楚,国人不欲,故出其君,以说于晋,卫侯出居于襄牛。
  公子买戍卫,楚人救卫,不克,公惧于晋,杀子丛以说焉,谓楚人曰,不卒戍也。
  晋侯围曹,门焉多死,曹人尸诸城上,晋侯患之,听舆人之谋曰,称舍于墓,师迁焉,曹人凶惧,为其所得者,棺而出之,因其凶也而攻之,三月,丙午,入曹,数之以其不用僖负羁,而乘轩者三百人也,且曰,献状,令无入僖负羁之宫,而免其族,报施也,魏犨,颠颉,怒曰,劳之不图,报于何有,爇僖负羁氏氏,魏犨伤于胸,公欲杀之,而爱其材,使问,且视之病,将杀之,魏犨束胸,见使者曰,以君之灵,不有宁也,距跃三百,曲踊三百,乃舍之,杀颠颉以徇于师,立舟之侨以为戎右,宋人使门尹般如晋师告急,公曰,宋人告急,舍之则绝,告楚不许,我欲战矣,齐秦未可,若之何,先轸曰,使宋舍我而赂齐秦,藉之告楚,我执曹君,而分曹卫之田,以赐宋人,楚爱曹卫,必不许也,喜赂怒顽,能无战乎,公说,执曹伯,分曹卫之田,以畀宋人,楚人入居于申,使申叔去谷,使子玉去宋,曰,无从晋师,晋侯在外,十九年矣,而果得晋国,险阻艰难,备尝之矣,民之情伪,尽知之矣,天假之年,而除其害,天之所置,其可废乎,军志曰,允当则归,又曰,知难而退,又曰,有德不可敌,此三志者,晋之谓矣,子玉使伯棼请战,曰,非敢必有功也,愿以间执谗慝之口,王怒,少与之师,唯西广东宫,与若敖之六卒,实从之,子玉使宛春告于晋师,曰,请复卫侯,而封曹,臣亦释宋之围。子犯曰:子玉无礼哉,君取一,臣取二,不可失矣。先轸曰,子与之,定人之谓礼,楚一言而定三国,我一言而亡之,我则无礼,何以战乎,不许楚言,是弃宋也,救而弃之,谓诸侯何,楚有三施,我有三怨,怨雠已多,将何以战,不如私许复曹卫以携之,执宛春以怒楚,既战而后图之,公说,乃拘宛春于卫,且私许复曹卫,曹卫告绝于楚,子玉怒,从晋师,晋师退,军吏曰,以君辟臣,辱也,且楚师老矣,何故退,子犯曰,师直为壮,曲为老,岂在久乎,微楚之惠不及此,退三舍辟之,所以报也,背惠食言,以亢其雠,我曲楚直,其众素饱,不可谓老,我退而楚还,我将何求,若其不还,君退臣犯,曲在彼矣,退三舍,楚众欲止,子玉不可,夏,四月,戊辰,晋侯,宋公,齐国归父,崔夭,秦小子憖,次于城濮,楚师背酅而舍,晋侯患之,听舆人之诵,曰,原田每每,舍其旧而新是谋,公疑焉,子犯曰,战也,战而捷,必得诸侯,若其不捷,表里山河,必无害也,公曰,若楚惠何,栾贞子曰,汉阳诸姬,楚实尽之,思小惠而忘大耻,不如战也,晋侯梦与楚子搏,楚子伏己而盬其脑,是以惧,子犯曰,吉,我得天,楚伏其罪,吾且柔之矣,子玉使斗勃请战,曰,请与君之士戏,君冯轼而观之,得臣与寓目焉.晋侯使栾枝对曰,寡君闻命矣,楚君之惠,未之敢忘,是以在此,为大夫退,其敢当君乎,既不获命矣,敢烦大夫,谓二三子。戒尔车乘,敬尔君事,诘朝将见。晋车七百乘,韅靷鞅靽,晋侯登有莘之虚以观师,曰,少长有礼,其可用也,遂伐其木,以益其兵,己巳,晋师陈于莘北,胥臣以下军之佐,当陈蔡,子玉以若敖之六卒,将中军,曰,今日必无晋矣,子西将左,子上将右,胥臣蒙马以虎皮,先犯陈蔡,陈蔡奔,楚右师溃,狐毛设二旆而退之,栾枝使舆曳柴而伪遁,楚师驰之,原轸,郤溱,以中军公族横击之,狐毛,狐偃,以上军夹攻子西,楚左师溃,楚师败绩,子玉收其卒而止,故不败,晋师三日馆谷,及癸酉而还,甲午,至于衡雍,作王宫于践土,乡役之三月,郑伯如楚,致其师,为楚师既败而惧,使子人九行成于晋,晋栾枝入盟郑伯,五月,丙午,晋侯及郑伯盟于衡雍,丁未,献楚俘于王,驷介百乘,徒兵千,郑伯傅王,用平礼也,已酉,王享醴,命晋侯宥,王命尹氏,及王子虎,内史叔兴父策命晋侯为侯伯,赐之大辂之服,戎辂之服,彤弓一,彤矢百,玈弓矢千,秬鬯一卣,虎贲三百人,曰,王谓叔父,敬服王命,以绥四国,纠逖王慝,晋侯三辞,从命,曰,重耳敢再拜稽首,奉扬天子之丕显休命,受策以出,出入三觐。
Red part is about this battle,others are talking about backgroud and aftermath.
Wiki translate part of this.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chengpu.
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wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

Tranlate it by Google Translate

Zi Yu(Lord Cheng Decheng) sent Dou Bo to challenge and said to Duke Wen of Jin : "I asked to contest with Your honor’s soldiers, and Your honor can watch this match lean on crossbar in front of the chariot. Zi Yu will accompany Your honor."Duke Wen let Luan Zhi replied: "Our menial lord knew your order! We can't forget the favor of the Chu King, how dare we not retreated here,to evade Lord Zi Yu? How dare we resist the King of Chu? Since we can not get orders from your mighty King to withdraw, bother to tell others : ready for your chariot, take your task seriously, we see the battlefield tomorrow morning.

Jin has 700 chariots . Duke Wen went to the site of the old town of Gu Shen to review military capabilities and said: "Both young and old are very polite and can be used to combat." The Jin army then deforested the trees as a complement to combat equipment.

On the fourth day of April, Jin troops take position in Xinbei, and Xu Chen, lieutenant general of the army, led the troops to confine Chen and Cai 's army. The main body of the Chu State, Zi Yu used 600 soldiers of Ruoao Clan as the main force and said: "Today, Jin will be eliminated!" Zi Xi(Dou yishen) commanded the left army and Zi shang( Dou Bo) commanded the right army. Xu Chen use the tiger flur on horse,then attack Chen's and Cai's army. Chen, Cai flee, Chu's right army defeated. Jin Upper Army's Commander Hu Mao lifted the banner on both sides to pretend to be retreated. Jin Lower Army Commander Luan Zhi let the chariot dragged his branches to pretend to flee. Chu's army was deceived and pursued. Yuan Zhen and Qie Qin led Jin's Middle Army attack Chu's flank . Humao and Hu Yan conter attack from west ,then the left army of Chu also defeated. Zi yu order rest of Chu's force retreat, so his army did not rout.

Jin army stay in Chu's camp for three days and ate Chu's supply until them returned to homeland on April 8.
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GiveWarAchance
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by GiveWarAchance »

I love how the Chinese regard warfare as casually as a soccer game or lawn bowling event. Sounds like they had a lot of fun with it.
wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

jomni wrote:A small request for guys with this type of battle info. Please create Epic Battles for Silk Road. :)
Or you can share your resource here even if it’s in Chinese.
I upload some paper(chinese) about army organization from western Zhou to Warring States period,called"A New Exploration of the Bronze Inscriptions and Army Organization in the West Zhou Dynasty".
Hope it useful :o
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西周金文与军制新探.zip
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wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

Another Paper(also chinese),called "On the Difference Between the Western Zhou Dynasty and the Qin Dynasty in Military System",explain Western Zhou Dynasty and Qin's military system.
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论周礼建军模式与战国秦军制的差异_李严冬.zip
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wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

jomni wrote:A small request for guys with this type of battle info. Please create Epic Battles for Silk Road. :)
Or you can share your resource here even if it’s in Chinese.
Some other resource(All in chinese) about this period Chinese army
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_司马法_我国军事法典的鼻祖_田旭东.zip
(60.75 KiB) Downloaded 994 times
战国写本兵书_曹沫之陈_田旭东.zip
(309.24 KiB) Downloaded 1169 times
从银雀山汉简_陈忌问垒_看战国时期的齐国军阵_赵志超.zip
(720.7 KiB) Downloaded 1253 times
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wzfcns
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by wzfcns »

And here are some special resource:explain Qin' army from Terracotta Warriors,and a Military book which was written in 356BC,called "司马法Sima Fa"(mean"Codex of General").
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兵马俑.zip
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《司马法》.zip
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jomni
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Re: Classic Zhou dynasty battle formation

Post by jomni »

Thanks
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